A omitted

a Brief Exhortation

To Mr. Thomas Edwards;

That he may breake off his old sins, in the
old yeare, and begin the New yeare, with new
fruits of Love, first to God, and then
to his Brethren.

INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Psal. 7. 14,15,16. “Behold, hee travelleth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischiefe,
and brought forth falshood.
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
His mischiefe shall returne upon his owne head, and his violent dealing
shall come downe upon his owne pate.”
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Psal. 50.19,20,21. “Thou givest thy mouth to evill, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
Thou sittest and speakest against thy Brother; Thou slanderest thine
owne Mothers Sonne.
These things hast thou done, and I kept silence: thou thoughtest that I
was altogether such a one as thy selfe: but I will reproove that, and set
them in order before thine eyes.”

Jan: obscured

By Kathrine Chidley

Printed in the Yeare, 16451644

A1v A2r

The Introduction or Epistle,
To the Godly Reader.

The cause which formerly moved mee to Answer Mr. Edwards
his first Booke, was; First, the frothinesse of his reasons; for
when I saw them light, I thought a man of understanding
would not medle with them, because they were so rotten
they could not hold together: And I conceived that if hee
were not answered at all, he would then have abounded in
vaine glory.

Secondly, the hearing of the disturbance it made in the City, (the better
being greived that hee so discovered himselfe, and the worser party domineering,
that Mr. Edwards was become their Champion,) moved me to
take into consideration the difficulty, and finding his booke to be (as indeeds
it was) a rangling - insinuating, - contradictory, - revengefull story, it appeared
unto me to be a taske most befitting a woman; The consideration whereof
moved me to answer it publikely as it was published.

And forasmuch as it plainely appeareth, that this his second booke (or
Antipologie) is of the same nature with his other, and hath no more substance
than it, I doe affirme, It was answered before it was written: for it consisteth
(for the most part,) of tales, and reports, it is an unsavory history, full of revengeful
- slanderous - accusations
, but abounding with reprochful jeeres
and evill calumniations: But I have now noted some things therein which
concerne my selfe ―― and all who feare God, and walke in his way, [I meane
the way of Separation] that way which Paul walked in, which way was then
called herisie, and so is still, by Mr. Edwards, and such as he.

Both I, and my faithfull yoakefellow have joyntly tasted of the pressures
of the Hyrarchy above these twenty yeares, and the Bishops-Priests have driven
us out of our place of abode 16. yeares agoe: and we (amongst the rest
of the people of God,) are now prosecuted afresh by Mr. Edwards, and such
as he, for he hath unjustly charged them to bee the movers of sedition, and
distubers of the Kingdomes
. By all of which it appeareth that it concerneth the
Separation principally to take notice of Shimies cursings, and Rabshakes raylings,
and not only to consider that it may be God hath bidden them so doe, but A2 also A2v
also to declare that what they doe is unjust, which was one cause that moved
me to endeavor (according to my skill) to unmaske the faces of those ungrounded
arguments, against Independencie and Tolleration, in his former
booke, which I answered three yeares agoe: And though he hath not ability
to defend, or relieve, any one of those his arguments against Separation, yet
he chargeth others with neglect in not answering his first borne: against that
way, in which booke he declared that though it was the “first brought forth,
yet not the first conceived”
: for that he had “large tractates to put forth against the
whole way of Separation”
; I have waited these three yeares, for the bringing
of them forth, but now it seemes to me, it was a false conception.

Moreover I suppose that (Mr. Edwards) his painefull labouring thus ariseth
out of feare, least (as Christ is exalted, and as the hill of Syon appeareth
more eminently (then the Priests wil be in danger to loose some maintenance
(as hee hath in part expressed in his former booke In his 5.
Reason against
where he speaketh
of their demanding dues.) And true it is, that people rightly informed will
not have their necks captivated, under Jewish yoakes of tithes paying, to
maintaine a popish- ordained Clergie; for God requireth his people to maintaine
no Ministry but their owne, even such as labour with them in the Word
and doctrine
, and not those who labour against them: And I know right
well that the Ministers of the Separation, have never beene chargeable to the
Church of England, neither have any of their poore Orphans beene left to any
of her Parishes, though their parents have suffered death (in prison) by the
cruelty of the Prelates, [as I could name divers within these 10. yeares:]
yet God turned his hands upon the little ones and provided for them, according
to his promise, INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Zech.
I 3.7
so that as the righteous parents “were never forsaken, neither
did their seede beg their bread”

And Remember (good Reader) that though Balack would have had
the people of God curied, and Baalam would faine have had the wages, yet
at length he was constrayned to confesse, that surely there was no inchantment
against Jacob, neither divination against Israel, but according to this time (saith
it shall rise up as a great Lyon & lift up himselfe as a young Lyon, he shall not
lie downe, uuntill he eate of the Prey and drinke the blood of the slaine,”
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Numb.
23.verse 23, 24.

K. C.

A3r 1

A Brief Exhortation
to Mr. Tho: Edwards, that he may
breake off his old sins, in the old yeare,
and begin the new yeare, with new
fruits of Love, first to God, and
then to his Brethren.

Mr Edwards,

The causes of my writing unto you at this time
are three. 1. Your threatnings. 2. Your
challenge. 3. The out-cryes of the people
against you, for that which you delivered in
Pulpits Pulpit, turned
where they expected to heare the
Gospel of Jesus Christ Preached by you; in
stead whereof, they heare proud boastings
that you will after your skirmishing with the Separation take
their Fort; But peradventure you may, by your fishing for others,
be caught your selfe. Now our fort, and fortresse is Jesus
, and though you take him, you shall never take him from
us, for he is all fulnesse to all, and sufficiencie for all, that draw
neere unto him; But whether you intend so to take him as to
rest upon him, or to take him as the High Priests Officers once
tooke him, to crucifie him; let your hearers judge.

Sir, you are a brave warriour, and can fight well in a Pulpit,
where you are sure none shall come neere you, so much as to give
you an answer: for proofe whereof, witnesse your owne confession
in your Antipologia, that the “Separatists will not come in
your Churches”
: Therefore you may easily make the people beleeve
great matters by your juggling, where there is none to resist
you, nor hold out the light in opposition to your false figures; A3 But A3v 2 But if they were there, they might not be admitted there to opose
you, nor to use any meanes to undeceive the people. But it is
an old saying (though somewhat grosse) that every cocke croweth
on his owne miksen
, and that makes you so bold, where you are
sure you shall have no oposition.

But (Mr. Edwards) now I will counsell you, to muster up all
your army you bragge of
, and come forth, set up your colours, and
pitch a field with the Separation, bring forth all your strong reasons,
not only the last conceived, your latter thoughts, and studies,
but also your large tractates [against the whole way of Separation,]
which were the first conceived of old, which you promised in your
former booke In your Introduction.
for you have brought no argument in your Antipologia
against Separation from a false Church and false Ministry,
but you have challenged all, high, and low, Anabaptists, Separatists,
and Semiseparates, &c. to bring a ground from Scripture for
the lawfulnesse of separating from a true Church
, which thing wee
never strived for, for we know it is utterly unlawfull. But this
was your policie (especially when you preached upon the house
top,) to make the people beleeve that those who seperate from the
Church of England seperate from a true Church
: But this is yours to
prove, I therfore challenge you now, to prove [by the Scripture]
that the Church of England is a true Church, and the Ministry
thereof a true Ministry, and that they have a true outward calling,
which yet you have not done, neither have you brought any argument
neither in your former booke, nor in this Antipologia,
that proves your Church and Ministry true; And I thinke you
dare not deny but that these bee substantialls, and not some of
your meere circumstances, which you would have decided without
the word of God
, Pag. 73. for if the Church be but a circumstance, and the
calling of the ministry a meere circumstance, then you neede not
stand so much for it, and upon ordination from the Pope, for if
ever you be true Ministers of Jesus Christ it must be without that,
and therefore it appeareth to bee you, who have ordination by
persons that are not ordained, and not the Ministers of the Separation:
for God hath ordained his Church to ordaine their owne
, but hath not ordained the Church of England, nor the
Ministry thereof at all, wherefore it appeareth that you can have
no true ordination, unlesse you become Separate; And all your argumentsments A4r 3 in your former booke tended to the keeping downe of the
kingdome and power of Jesus Christ. And all the tales which you
tell in your Antipologia, tend to the defaming of your Brethren
as they came from you. But (as your tales are in themselves) many
of them turne to the praise of those whom you would defame.

As for instance, [you tell us of their humility, and that “they say
that they dare not take upon them to determine all the waies of God”

For ought I know they doe well, INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.I Sam. 13.14: for the Prophet David,
who was not onely a King, but a Prophet of God, and a
man after Gods owne heart
, thought not himselfe sufficient for
that worke of universall determining, which you may plainely
see in the 119. Psalme, where he so often desireth of the Lord to
teach him his - waies, - statutes, - precepts, - commandements, - testimonies,
- lawes
, - and to direct him in his word, yet David resteth
not there, but strikes Covenant with God, promising that he
will “run the waies of Gods commandements when hee hath learned
them,” INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Psal. 119 32.
and also that he would teach others when the Lord had
taught him, even as you say these men have done, for you report
that they are active for their way: Now if God have made knowne
his way to them more fully then he hath done heretofore, they
ought to be more active for it, and as God enlargeth their hearts,
so to enlarge his praise.

You tell us of a sort of Anabaptists that would preach on
the top of houses, because they would imitate the Apostles
. But have
you not now taken their turne? for these men (as you say) even
the Apologists, with divers others have of late preached not only
to the Parliament, but also to the people in divers places, which
you name as Margrets Westminster, Michaell Cornewell, Magnes
at the bridge foot
, and Stepney, with other places. These men
(I say) preaching true doctrine there in the eares of the people,
you have published it (as it were) upon the house top, for you
have put them in print, that so that we that are Separatists, who dare
not come to your Church; and all the men in England may know
it. And you have threatned to print them at large. Pag. 219.

You say, “their doctrines make for their way, ―― and they are
Answ. active for their way”
. ―― Indeede (Mr.Edwards) though Gods
be not as mens waies, yet when men make Gods waies their
waies, they ought to be active for the same, for they are the waies of A4v 4
of peace
, the waies of truth, and the waies of life, and though they
are narrow waies, because there is no rule leading unto them, but
the Word of God, yet he that is guided by Gods spirit shall bee led
into all truth; INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Joh. 16.13
Therefore it is good for you and all persons to
labour to be clothed with humility, for God hath promised to
teach the humble his waies.

You say “there are foure passages (in the Apologeticall Narration)
which are good and usefull amongst so many bad”
, Therefore wee will
consider of these which are good, & usefull, amongst those which
you say are bad.

The first being their acknowledgement of the Parliament.

Answ. Herein I conceive they give Casar his due.

The second of the Assembly of Divines. They did not give them
Answ. the Title of a Synod, nor atribute authority to them to determine
for the Church of Christ, lawes, rites, or cerimonies, &c. For I
thinke they did not understand them to have (or to be capable
of) any such power from God: for if these had knowne they had
assumed it, they would not (as I thinke) have beene of them.

The third is their taking notice of the miscarriages of the Separatists.

Answ. In this they did very well, and made a good use thereof, as I
may judge from your owne speeches, concerning their way, and
I pray you tell me (Mr.Edwards) for what end were the miscariages
of Gods people (written by the direction of Gods spirit) but to
warne others of the Saints from falling into the like; for wherefore
did God at any time punish his people (for their Sinnes) but
to recall them back, that so he might bee reconciled unto them againe;
but never to deterre them from his holy waies, wherein
they walked before, or when they practised those miscarriages.

If Adam should have offered no more sacrifice, because Caine
fell out with his Brother (for offering a better Sacrifice than hee,)
he should have beene condemned of his owne conscience; for the
way was never the worse for Caines miscarriage. And the way
that Jacob walked in, was the way of God though the sonnes of
Jacob sinned; They were godly and holy men in the maine,
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Gen. 37.7,8,
though they missed it in selling their brother; And did not God
visit them in mercy, to bring them to a sight of their sinnes, when he B1r 5
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Gen.42. and
43. and 44
. &c.
he caused their sheafs to bow downe to Josephs sheafe in Egypt,
and caused Joseph to afflict them, to put them in minde of their
sinne; yea, did it not worke that good effect upon them, for
which the Lord sent it, by causing them to accuse themselves saying,
we are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that wee saw the
anguish of his soule when hee besought us, and wee would not heare,
therefore this evill is come upon us; Nay, did not God further illustrate
Josephs glory before them, not only by making all their sheafes
to bow downe to his sheafe, but in letting it be seene that the Sun, and
the Moone, and the eleaven starres fell downe before him, when they
all went downe into Egypt; wee will not deny but that the sonnes of
Jacob did fatally miscarry, yet the way of God wherein they walked
was not therefore to be abhorred
, and yet their miscarriages are set
before us all as land-markes, that we should take heede of running
upon such shelves
; And I hope these Apologists have not forsaken
the wayes of truth for the miscarriages of some that have walked
in the way before them, for you say, “they have beene active for
their way since”
; And I hope that they know that the way was Christs, though Judas betrayed his Master & Annanias, and Saphira
discembled, and Symon Magus was proud, and one of the
Church of Corinth, committed fornication, and Demas forsook the
way, and embraced the world, and Diotrephus (Antichrist like)
fought for preheminence, and many Balaamites crept into their
society, who preached for wages, and if any should have said
that the way of the Gospel was not the way of Christ, because
these persons (and such as these) did miscarry, it would have
discovered great ignorance in them; for though they were
spots in their feasts of charity, yet the Church of God had alwaies
power to cast them out, and that without the helpe of a Synod,
which hath beene proved at large in my answer to your booke
against Independency and Tolleration So that though the Saints of
God who are chosen vessells unto him should faile, as Peter did
in denying his Master, through the slavish feare that hee was in
of that company of Priests, which Crucified Christ in that time,
and the beleeving Corinths wrought upon to eate things sacrifised
to Idolls, (according to the doctrine of Balaam,) as some of
the Church of Pergamus and Thyatira were, yet notwithstanding
these personall infirmities, the way of God wherein they walked B ought B1v 6
ought not to bee abhorred, but wee are to make the same use of
these fatall miscarriages now, as the people of God were to make
then of the miscarriages of Noah, Abraham, Lot, David, Soloman,
Hezekiah, and divers others, and not to runne upon the same
: And though these Apologists abhorred the miscarriages
of those that went before them, in the way of Seperation; yet by
your report, they still follow the way, and so they ought, for
we are commanded to walke in the way of good men, and to keepe
the paths of the righteous

Objection. But some may say, can those be called righteous men that so miscarry?

Answer. We affirme still that the way is a righteous way, and if any man
(that desireth from his heart to walke uprightly in it) faile
through infirmity, hee hath an advocate with the father Jesus
the rihgghteous
, and needeth not to goe to a Pope or a Synod
for a pardon of his sinne.

Objection. Some peradventure will say, you will have the Saints to bee subject
to no Law

Answer. If the Saints breake a just Law, they must submit to the sensure
of that Law, if they breake their Covenant, and violate it in sinning
openly against any of the rules of Jesus Christ which hee
hath given to his Church, they are subject to bee sensured by the
Church, for the law was made for the disobedient. But those that
walke holily, against such there is no law. Magistrates were given
for the punishment of evill doers, and not onely so, but for the
praise of those that doe well
, and these are the two parts of the Magistrats
duty which if they neglect, they must answer it to God,
who sitteth in the Assembly of the Gods, and weigheth all their

And now what have you got by the Apologists declaration?
(that they have observed the failings of the people of God.) You
have meerely bewrayed your owne ignorance, for if you had
knowledge, you might have made a better use of their speech.

You say, “their fourth thing that is good is their discription of the
people of the Church of England”

Answer. I conceive they speake of some of whom they had hope, because
they conceived them to be plyable to receive what is brought
them for truth, and also capable to discerne error, in some measure
; So B2r 7
so it appeareth that if they preach errour, the people are capable
to discerne it.

But to leave this as a thing that doth not much concerne us that
are Separates, I will borrow leave to paraphrase a little upon your
applycation, which you make of the miscariages of the Separation.
You say you would have had “the Apologists to have made
use of these mens fearfull sinnes to have deterd them from their way”
and you nominate Brown, Boulton, Barrow, Smith, and Jonson.
But here you commit two evills.

First, you insinuate a slander against the dead. Secondly, you
would have men forsake the way of God for other mens failings.

For the first, you speake of their fearfull sinnes; but you mention
nothing, The greatest sin that ever I heard any of them accused
withall was, their going backe to communicate with the
Churches of England and Rome
, which was a great sin indeed, for
Idolatry is as the sin of witchcraft, and to speake the truth, this is
that great principle which hath caused so much division among
the Separation.

You refer us to the stories of Brown, Boulton, Barrow, Smith, and Jonson.

I pray you (Mr. Edwards) what Stories are those? and what
are their fearfull sinnes therein mentioned? It may be you mean
some lying popish stories (made by some trencher Poets) for Prelates,
like the stories made by Mercurius Alicus at Oxford, and some
of those stories are (by those who are best informed) taken to be
like this booke of yours. And like a booke written by Mr. Peter
[my old Parish Priest,] which he wrote divers yeares agoe,
against the Professors in the Church of England, concerning
Enoch Abevan, who because he was mad, and in his madnes killed
his Mother, and his Brother, this Mr. Studley (called by the honest
party, (Study-ly) inveighed against the way of profession, and
nonconforming, as you doe against the way of Separation.

And touching the Apologists silence in not declaring the principles
which were the causes of the divisions

I Answer. It may be they did not perfectly see them.

But I pray you tell me, how you dare charge all these men
you have mentioned with fearfull sinnes? If the sinnes were so B2 fearfull, B2v 8
fearfull, which Brown and Jonson were guilty of, the one in stepping
backe to the Church of England, for feare of persecution.
The other to the Church of Rome (for feare of nullifying his
baptisme, because he had it in a false Church, thinking that there
could be no true Ordinance (in any respect) in a false Church,)
and so was constrained (through want of faith and light to justifie
the Church of Rome and her daughters, (as Mr. Samuel Rutherford
hath done,) tell me Mr. Edwards, what case are you in then?
if their cases were so fearfull in justifying your Churches. For
surely upon your owne principles, these were vertues to justifie
your false Churches to be true.

Smiths, you may know was of another nature, for he went
from the Churches of the Separation, because he judged them unbaptised
, and that was his ignorance.

But what have you against Mr. Barrow? Was there ever any
thing justly layd to this Separates charge? Hee was indeed hanged
at Tyburne, for maintaining that the Church of England was a
false Church
, and so was Mr. Greenwood who was his companiion
and fellow Prisoner, though there was no matter of fact layd
to either of their Charge worthy of death or bonds: These two
men were put to death by the Prelates, in Queen Elizabeths time,
without her knowledge or privity, and that Early in a morning,
the figure of their sufferings being seen in the Sky, by Mariners
that were in other parts, and it was supposed, by the beholders of
the figure (then to be done in England) because of the womens
wearing of hats: for the two poore widowes that attended upon
them in the Prison, waited upon them to the Gallowes bearing
their winding sheets; the figure of all which was seen as was said
before: But this was done without the Queens knowledge, the
greife whereof (by relation of those who were neer her) shee carried
to her death. Honest Penry suffered death about the same
time, he was hanged at Saint Thomas a wattrings, Early in the
morning; And who dare say ought against these men, but that
they lived Saints, where Sathans throne was, and dyed as holy
Martyrs of Jesus Christ as Antipas. And it may be, these are the
fearfull judgements you meane befell them; for no other judgements
befell them in this life, and they shall be freed from judgement
in the life to come; But such false miracles you Priests worke B3r 9
worke, (as hath beene told you at large in my answer to your
booke against Tolleration) to make “all the world wonder and runne
after the Beast, saying, who is like unto the beast? who is able to make
warr with him?” INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Revel. 13.
But why did you not say that those were fearfull
judgements of God
which came upon the Martyrs, who were
burnt in Smithfeild in Queen Maries time? they suffered for the
same cause as far as they saw them: and the sentence against them
(as it came from the seat of the Magistrate) came from heaven, as
well as the sentence against Barrow, and Greenwood, and Penry,
and all the rest of the people of God. If you will deny this, you
will deny Queen Mary to be a lawfull Magistrate, for the secular
passed the sentence of condemnation then, as in Queen
time; for when the preists once had cryed, that such
and such of the Saints were guilty, then the Magistrates passed the
sentence, that so the Preists hands might be clensed from their
bloud; as witnesse Mr. Foxes booke.

But to leave these holy Saints at rest with God. I will speake
something of those that are living, both the people of the Separation
and the people of the Church of England, As touching the
people of the Separation, they are all visibly holy. If any root of
is seene to spring up amongst them it is cast out.

But you would intimate that the casting out of a sinner is a
strong division, or else what doe you mean, by the strong divisions
you speake of, for there is no other division of the Separation, but
the separating the pretious from the vile. That was a strong division
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.I Cor. 5. which was made in the Church of Corinth, when they cast out
the incesteous person, but it was a true, holy, and just division, because
God required it, and they were not to keepe the feast of
the Lord, till they had made that division: For if they had, it
would not have beene for the better, but for the worse. For they
ought not to have kept the feast with old Leven: Such holy divisions
you seldome (or never) make in the Church of England,
neither indeed can you, being all in confusion, therefore you
were not capable to pick motes out of other mens eyes, for as
much as the beames were so bigg in your owne, And whereas
those that commit sinne in the Churches of Christ are cast out
and remaine no longer there, and are not admitted againe without
repentance: The members of the Church of England committingmittingg B3v 10
sinne, yea, being common, and ordinary, and knowne sinners,
yet they are forced to be still of your Church, or else they shall
be punished: yea, though they commit sinne worthy of death,
and be condemned by the sentence of the Magistrat, yet remain
they uncast out of your Church, as appeareth by giving the Sacrament
to Theeves, and Murderers when they are going to the
Gallowes, be they never so impenitent.

Objection. It may be objected, This is a false charge, for wee doe not now
admit all to the Sacrament, wee are about reforming

Answer. The Church of England was never so deformed [for the most
part of the Kingdome] as it is now, yet there is not the worst
Parish of the Church of England, but it hath the Sacrament still,
by which actions the Priests become open violaters of Gods Commandements,
and that against their owne knowledge, in casting
Gods holy things to dogs; yea, the best in England, that taketh upon
him a Parish charge, is guilty of this sinne actually, in sealing the
seed of wicked men with Baptisme, yea, and all men in the Church
are guilty thereof, that consent thereunto, though it
be but with silence.

Objection. But how can it be said that any of the people of the Church of England
are wicked, seeing they are all members of the Church; for the
dogs and enchanters, &c. are without? INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Revel. 22. 15.

Answer. By this it appeareth what manner of Church the Church of
is, even such a one as Mr. Henry Barrow hath discribed
it to be long agoe; for if you please to read but his discovery of
a false Church, which he wrote in prison, you shall see there he
hath proved the Church of England to be as the Church of Rome
is, even Babylon, a filthy cage of all unclean and hatefull birds. But
rather then you will take Mr. Barrowes advice, and the counsell
of the Holy Ghost to come from among them, you will sooner
helpe to hang all such Barrowes, and then say it is the judgement
of God upon them: for none hath beene more forward
then your selfe to persecute the Lords people, as appeareth by
your Writ of Ne admittas, which you sent to the Parliament, to
keep the Petitions of the poore Saints out thence. But it will not be
for the Parliaments safety, to take such wicked counsell as yours. I
hope the Parliament seeth (by this time) that God is making
inquisition for bloud, yea, for the blroud of the Saints. And thereforefore B4r 11
it is better that all sinne which hath beene committed, should
be repented of, then that more should be added to the stock.

By all this you may see that the 4 things (in the Apollogie,)
which you say are good, are good for us, but not for you: And if
you had not beene benumed in your spirit, you would never
have taken up (against us) such weapons, which (if you had beene
sensible) you might have known would have come positively against
your selfe; But these tales which you tel in your Antipologia,
are like unto some of your tales which you tell the people in
the Pulpit: for there you say you will face the Separation, and
they will flie away, but you are shrewdly mistaken: For I, (who
am one of the meanest) dare give you the meeting, and I hope to
speed as well as I did, when I met that ragged Regiment which
you set out against Independency and Toleration, which you called
your Scout; (in your 8th. Reason against Independency) and
joyned and subjoyned forces against Tolleration.

Moreover you say, (in your Antipologia) “that the Anabaptists
tost away thir baptisme, (received in a false Church) because they wil
not put a new peice to an old garment. And upon the same ground you say the Separation would have the Materiall Churches pulled down.”

Answer. If this be one of the Anabaptists grounds (as it may be it is)
then you may see their mistake: For they ought to discerne between
Baptisme in a false Church, which is an Ordinance of God,
w that Church hath stollen & carried away in their Apostacie,
they ought (I say) to put a difference betwixt that, and an Idol
of their owne making, as for example. The circumcision, which
Jeroboam caried with him, was Gods; but the Calves were his
owne, Daggan, and his Temple was the Philistems, but the Arke
was Gods. And therefore if the Separates desire the pulling
down of the Idols Temples, they doe well, but if these high places
stand, they will be no peice sowed to their garments, for they touch
them not. But they have not been more forward (in this good
worke of the pulling downe of the Idols Temples,) then your selfe
in writing to the Parliament for a whole and totall Reformation,
because they should not be blemished, you would have them to
☜; pull downe the high places and all Idols and Idolatry, as whosoever
readeth your Epistle to your booke against Independency may see
at large, where your reasonable arguments are set down to the Parliament B4v 12
Parliament for that end and purpose. But the Anabaptists have
no such ground to put away their Baptisme which they received
in a false Church, as hath beene proved before. The Calves and
high places of Jeroboam were to be done away, and it was their
duty to demolish them, because they were a curse to the Land,
and Idols
of his owne making as hath beene said before: But the
Circumcision which was Gods, which they carried away with
them, they brought againe to Gods Temple, (as wee have done
our Baptisme,) and were accepted. By all which it appeareth
that you are able to lay no errour to the charge of the Separation.

Moreover in this your Antipologie, you advance, and extoll
your booke against Independencie and Tolleration: You say, that
“the Apologists meant that, as well as others, which were written with
strength against there way”
: And secondly, you affirme it to bee
“argumentall, and that therefore it behoved either all or some of them
to have answered it”

I Answer: They know best what they have to doe, yet for
my owne part, I did conceive it ought to have beene answered,
and therefore I answered it my selfe, and that for these reasons.

First, because you should not be wise in your owne conceit. Secondly,
because I read that our Saviour Christ answered Sathan,
when Sathan brought false arguments against him, and it is also
written, that we should be ready to give a reason of our hope, to every
one that shall aske us
: and I considering the many questions that you asked, and the weakenesse of your reasons and arguments,
and the untruths of some of them, and how contradictory they
were to one another, thought it very easie to undermine and overthrow
them, therefore I answered them, holding it meet for
those who were more able, not to trouble themselves therewith,
but to be employed in matters of farre greater and higher concernement.
But seeing you are yet so bold as to stand in it, to
affirme that your booke was argumentall and ought to have beene
answered by them all, or some of them

I desire againe to repeat the heads of some of the Cheifest of
your arguments, that so rationall men may consider, whether they
be truely Logicall.

The substance of your first Argument is this: Its evident
that the Church of God could not stand without some other helpe, then Apostles, C1r 13
Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, & Teachers, and all other
: But you have not declared any evidence, neither Scripture
nor true reason
: what! must wee then beleeve you upon your
bare word? I will not, for that were to make you a God, or at
least one infalliably inspired.

Your second argument is, that the Government of Independent or
seperated Churches, is not of divine institution, because it forceth
them to have Ministers without Ordination
, which thing is an untruth
like your former, as hath been proved at large in the Answer
thereunto: and there are divers untruths in this reason
(or section) which have been answered, as will plainely appeare
to those that will take the paines to reade your booke and

Your third, is; that it is not to be thought that Christ would leave
such a Governement, that affords no way of appeale, &c
. This is
answered at large: that the Churches of the Separation have true
waies of appeale
. But the Church of England hath not.

These be your mighty Arguments of strength, which deserved
an answer, though you proved none of them: If the answer
which I sent you already have not sufficiently proved your arguments
to be groundlesse, declare (I pray you) what substantiall
point is not answered, (if there be any substantialls in them)
and it shall be answered by Scripture, and good reason, or else
you shall have the conquest.

But you have (in this your Antipologia) named some learned
Authors; who have written against Separation, amongst which
Mr. Rutherford is one.

And I have seen Mr. Rutherfords booke, and also weighted it,
But I could not discerned, that he hath set down any thing against
Separation that hath any force, neither hath hee proved
any thing sufficiently, but hath propounded many queeries.
which have been both framed and answered long agoe, and he
hath in his discourse expressed and repeated many answers,
which have been made (to those queeirries,) by the Separation, and
running them over, he telleth us what this man saith, and what
that man saith, and what another man saith, but he in declaring
his owne conceptions (following his blind zeale, and popish Authors)
runneth himselfe headlong to justifie the Church and MinistryC nistry C1v 1314
of Rome
: against the Separates arguments, there specified,
Mr. Rutherford
divers times in
his booke named
(or rather
me in stead of
answering me,
he hath made
a shew to repeat
some of
my arguments,
and yet there
was no argument
in my
booke (so
(though he
calleth them
so) which he
hath answered,
no, nor so
much as set
my arguments
downe indeede
as they are, as
whosoever taketh
the paines
to read his
book, & mine
may see.
bringing no sufficient proofe either of his owne or other mens against
them: Therefore I would have understanding men to consider
whether this of his be learned or pious writing yea or no?
The generall scope of his booke tendeth to prove that the power
of the Church resteth in the hands of her Officers
. But he should consider
that Christ hath given the power to his Church which is his
body and spouse, of which: (and of whom) he himselfe is the head
and Husband, neither can any Officer in the Church move [Ecclesiastically]
without the power of the Church, no more then a
mans Arme, or Leg, or prime member can move, except it derive
power from the body of which it is a naturall member: Yea,
the power of the Keyes is as absolutely the Churches, which is
Christs wife, as the power of the Keyes of the Family are the
Mistrises, to whom the Husband giveth full power; and I thinke
no reasonable man will affirme (if her Husband give her sole
power in his absence) that she is subordinate to any of her servants.
Now the Scripture is cleere, that Christ (who is ascended
up on high
) hath delivered the power to his Church, therefore it is
against the light and law of nature
, to conceive the Church to be
thus subordinate to the servants; but rather (we may speake with
reverence to Christ) that her servants are subordinate unto her;
and it is a dishonour unto Christ for them to usurp ecclesiasticall
over her; But in case they should so doe, she hath received
commission from Christ her Husband, to deale with them, according
to the offence committed by them, and if need require
to cast them out, and then not to suffer them to enter in againe
but by the dore of Repentance.

But as Mr. Rutherford, by pleading for the Ecclesiasticall power
to be in the Officers, hath given great advantage to the Pope, so
hath he to the Anabaptists, by pleading the universallity of his
Church, bringing in the seed of wicked men to be baptized because
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Ma. 1,6. their fore father was a beleeving Parent, but upon this
ground all the Infants in the world are baptizable, because a beleever
was the father of them all. But the Scripture teacheth us otherwise,
for the “House of Jacob was forsaken by the Lord, because
they enlarged themselves from the East, and were Southsayers like
the Philistines, and pleased themselves, with the children of strangers.”

You C2r 1415

You have joyned to your Antipologia, certaine reasons against
, which are the same in substance with those
which you brought in your former; And seeing they have beene
largely answered there in the answer to your ten reasons, and in
my reply, to your answer to their six reasons: It is folly for you
to study to relieve those reasons to serve your turne; For untill
you are able to stand out, and prove by the word of God, that the
Church of England (which you call your Church) is the Church
of Jesus Christ, as it now stands in confusion; And the ministry
thereof (either in the Synod or out of the Synod) is the ministry
which Christ gave to his Church, when he ascended up on high:
Till this is proved (which can never be) all the arguments which
you have brought, or can bring against the Separates (under the
names of Sectaries), are still against your selfe. For whether there
be Sectaries or Scismaticks, whether Athists, or Papists? whether
wanton witted Christians, (as you tearme them) disobedient to
Magistrates, unfaithfull
to King and State, obstinate Rebels, nay,
what ever wickednesse can be named, the persons practising the
same are found to be Members of the Church of England. Therefore
I would advise you, hereafter to let Baal plead for himselfe:
And goe not about to make the Magistrates beleive, that it is their
duty to suppresse the Church of Christ, to heale the Rents of your
confused Church state, for though all the Prophets in the land
would heale Babel, yet she shall never be healed, for in a generall
Apostasie there can be no true Reformation, but by a totall visible
Separation of the pretious from the vile
. And therefore you come
short when you would intimate, there is nothing between you
and us in point of the ministery, but that our Ministers must sease
from their outward temporall labours, imployments, or trades,
for our Ministers have no false calling upon them, as yours have
which is a great gulfe betwixt your Ministers and ours, and betwixt
you and us, And concerning our Churches you say the
controversie were at an end, if our ministers would grant to our
Churches, that Assemblies and Synods, might judge and passe sentence
upon our members as often as they see just ground, But
truely (Mr. Edwards) this were to adulterate from the true patterne
left unto us, and as this argueth in you great slothfullnesse
and pride, so (if your councell were followed) it would make othersC2 thers C2v 16
like you; but as our Ministers doe not desire to live Idly,
as you would have them doe, neither doe our Churches desire the
thing which you would have our Ministers grant them: you
may know that you doe not goe according to the rules of Scripture,
when you perswade the Ministers of the Gospel to sease labouring
with their hands: For when Paul called the Elders of Ephesus,
to give them their charge. He set before them his owne example,
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Acts 20. I pray you read the 20. Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles:
And see whether Paul required any to leave working with
their hands: no sure, he commanded the direct contrary: where he
expressed that he “Coveted no mans Silver or Gold, or Apparrell”. But
faith, that they knew that his owne hands ministered to his “necessities,
and them that were with him”
. And further faith, he hath
shewed them in all things how that so labouring they ought to support
the weake, Remembring the words of our Lord Jesus, how he said,
It is a more blessed thing to give then to receive”
. And concerning
our Churches submitting to Synods, to judge their cases; That
were to make themselves fools: That were
to goe from
the greater, to
the lesser, and
(you your self
doe aske) what
a rule is thi:
Pag. 136.
For if ther be a wise man amongst
us, we ought not to goe to law with one another before those that are
, for temporall things, much lesse about spirituall things:
For the Apostle hath declared that the Saints shall judge the
, yea, the Angels; If this be true, (as no understanding man
can deny) then it would be a more greivious sinne, and woefull adultery,
for the Spouse of Jesus Christ to seeke, or soe, to a power,
that is neither Jure Divino, nor Jure Humano:

And now I will speake something to these your 8. reasons against
tolleration, though they are of the same nature with the other
in the first booke, and so have been answered already, yet to
satisfie the Reader more fully, I will here give answer unto them
particularly. But I would have you (& all men) know, that I doe
not (neither doe any that are truly religious) plead for such
a Toleration , as you would father upon us, even a Toleration
to sinne; We plead not for a Toleration of all sorts of persons
(who are members of the Church of England,) for that were to
plead for a Toleration for Theeves and Murderers, and Adulterers,
and Sabbath-breakers, and all sorts of wicked livers, that all
men might doe as they list; But the thing wee plead for, is a peaceable
enjoyment of our liberty to worship God, publikely, accordingding C3r 17
to his revealed word, most especially upon that time instituted
for his publike worship, even the first day of the weeke, being
the Lords day: And that all the 6. dayes, we may follow our callings
without feare of the execution of such unjust Lawes which
former Parliaments have made; against such, who would not
come to their Common Prayer book, or submit to all the orders of
the Parishes of England; for such a Toleration as this we plead.

In your first reason, you affirme that “a Toleration of Independent
Churches and governement with their opinions and practise, is against
the Magistrates duty laid down in the Scripture”

But I have proved it to be the Magistrates duty, to Tolerate the
true worship of God, and those practises which are according to
the word.

But you would insinuate still your old slander, that we plead for
a toleration of herisie and Scisme: which we know is against the Magistrates
; and this maketh against your evill way; For if a
“Parliament may not (as you say) displease God to please men, nor
winke at evill, to content some persons, And if Parliaments in making
lawes for religion, must depend on the will of God, revealed in his
word, and not upon the consciences of some People”
. Then it is dangerous
for a Parliament to constraine men to submit to the decrees
of a Synod (or Presbytery) when neither the Presbytery, nor
their decrees have ground in the word of God.

Your second reason is, that “The Toleration desired is against
the Solemne League and Covenant taken by the Parliament and
Kingdomes, and therefore the Toleration desired comes to late, the
doores being shut”

Ans. Here you lay a fearfull aspertion upon the Parliament:
Gospel Covenants
doe not
teach men to
for requiring such an Oath and Covenant, as if they intended to
shut the Kingdome of Christ and his true worship out of the three
Kingdomes, for you say further, “If the toleration were lawfull in it
selfe, yet because of the Oath and Covenant, it is unlawfull, though
it might have beene granted before, it cannot be granted now, least
the Kingdome should be guilty before God of Covenant breaking”

Ans. Surely you will make the Parliament all like Herod, INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Mark 6,16.
they must take poore John Baptists head off, because of their oath!

But C3v 1718

But is this oath so foule as you would make it? and yet is it
like the Decree of the Medes and Persians, that it may not be altered.
Well — God can deliver poore Daniell
in the Lyons denne, INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Dan. 6.
and (it
may be) you shall come in our stead, when once the Parliament
discerneth your wicked intentions.

But (Mr. Edwards) bethinke your selfe, will not you blush,
and be ashamed to give in the oath in these termes, as you have ever
exprest it (in this your second Reason, pag. 283.) that “we are
to endeavour the reformation of Religion, in the Kingdomes of England
and Ireland in Doctrine, Worship, Governement and Discipline,
according to the example of the best reformed Churches”
, [forgetting
the word of God] which ought to have beene set before you
(as it was indeede by the Parliament) But you deale by the
Covenant, as you deale by the Scriptures, hack them, and
mangle, and labour to make them fit for your owne turne;
and yet you jeered the Apologists (when they spake of the way
and practise of their Churches) because they did not name the
Law or Old Testament in expres words (though they in the same
place testifie that they reverence and adore the fulnesse of Scriptures
and their sufficiency to make us perfect, &c.) but here you
have shamefully forgotten your selfe, and overslipt both Law &
Gospel. And so tye your selves to mens patterns without the
word of God.

And surely I cannot beleeve that the Parliament hath Covenanted
to, as you inferre in the same page of your booke, “How
(say you) can they grant a tolleration so different as their way is
that they will not depend upon a Synod”
? And in the next page of the
same Reason you say, that there is in the Covenant a clause in the
second branch, that wee shall without respect of persons, endeavour
the extirpation of Scisme, and whatsoever shall bee found contrary to
sound Doctrine, and the power of godlinesse, least we pertake in other
mens sinnes
. Now surely (Mr. Edwards) I wonder that wise men
can smile upon you, except it be in consideration of your folly,
for you are made all of contradictions, unlesse you would have
us take it for granted, that it is according to sound doctrine, and the
power of godlinesse
, that a number of Priests should bee called together
of contrary religions, some for the Bishops and some for the
Presbyterie, and some for Christ, and that the two first casting aside C4r 1819
aside the last should agree to make decrees, & a Parliament should
bee bound to establish them. Would this bee now to extripate
? nay: it would be to establish a grand scisme: For godlinesse
is cast out by the two first and the Parliament must establish, what
ever shall be thought of those two first to be sound, whether it be
for the Bishops the antient fathers, or for the Presbyters their
younger sonnes: and so you would have the Parliament to bee
indeede guilty of their sinnes.

Your third RreasonReason is, that “A Tolleration is against the nature
of a Reformation”
: and here you discover your selfe in this
Reason; that the Reformation you intend to make is to force all
men in the Kingdom to submit to some perticular forme
, for you say
you “cannot make a reformation but it must offend many consciences”.
But if it be so, it will be the consciences of them that have knowledge
in the word of God: For the ignorant multitude will bee offended
at nothing, but of whatever Religion their King will be of, they
will be of the same, therefore you are a contentious man indeede! that will offend the consciences of the godly, to make your
Church great, that so your revenewes may be large!

Your fourth Reason is, “A tolleration of men in their errors is against
the judgements of the greatest lights”

Ans. It is granted, Therefore you might have spared your labour,
in citing your antient fathers: For in all that you doe herein, I
oppose you not.

Your fifth Reason is that the “Magistrates tollerating of errors,
and new opinions, is a kinde of invitiation to them, &c”

Ans. This thing I grant.

And therefore the Magistrates ought not to tollerate errors,
or any opinion that is not grounded upon the word of
God; And therefore I conceive it to be the Magistrates duty, to
make tryall of the Synod, whether their gathering together
bee according to the word of God? or according to the
customes of this Kingdome? And whether they bee not of the
same nature with the Synod which used to sit in the Convocation
? And whether any decree which they shall now pitch uponon C4v 20
[not having the Scripture for their warrant] may be consented
unto? And though it have the Scripture for their warrant,
whether there bee ever the more weight in it for their decreeing
of it: and it greatly concerneth the Parliament to consider whether
the Assembly have anything to do with the things of God,
[while they stand Priests by their Old-Popish-Calling,]
And that upon your ground (namely) that the magistrates
ought not to tollerate errors, or new opinions

And all waies, and practises, are new, and strange, which have
not warrant in the word of God.

In your sixth Reason, you pleade against “a tolleration of different
formes of Church governement, for feare of division among Ministers
and familie (you say) it will not stand with Christian policie,
but it will stand with Matchevillian”

Mr. Edwards, If Christian policie might take place in the Kingdome
of England, and all your Matchivillian pollicie banished
out, there would be no striving then about different formes of Religion;
but Christs true Religion and Gospel would then have a
free passage without interposing, for the free tollerating of it will
produce no mischiefes, nor evills at all; And it is not wee, that
pleade for different formes of Church governement, but your owne
. We pleade but for one intire governement established upon
sound principles, unalterable. And not a governemente which may
looke with severall faces, in severall times, upon severall occasions,
according to mens fancies.

And therefore it had beene better for you to have held your
tongue, then made so many repetitions of things which have beene
sufficiently answered long agoe.

Your seventh Reason is, that “Independency, or the Church way,
as being a scisme in forsaking the Reformed Churches, and constituting
now, the way of constituting Churches by the people, the way of making their Ministers, the refusing of beleevers and their
children to the Sacraments unlesse they bee Church members, with
many more, are all flat against the primative patterne, &c”

Answer. In these words you have so jumbled things together as it were
in a broken language. If you meane that the way of Separation
from your false Churches, & their way of making ministers, & constitutingstituting D1r 21
, is contrary to the primative patterne, you
speake untruly; for they make the primative patterne their rule:
And then (for their refusing of beleevers and their children from
the Sacraments, unlesse they be members of their Church
,) in this
you accuse them unjustly also: for they doe admit beleevers,
and their Infants to the ordinance of Baptisme, though they bee
not members of a particular congregation: for they are not capeable
to be members before Baptisme, (in respect of order) and to
partake of the Supper, till they be in [particular] Church fellowship.
And this I will engage my selfe to maintaine against you,
if it please you to dispute the case; And therefore you had no
neede to have branded this practise, with such a blacke badge, to
call it the fountaine of evill, and root of bitternesse and manifold errors
and other mischiefes
. For this is but your bitter language against
the truth.

And if you intend to make your rejoynders, and large tractates
(which you brag of,) of such stuffe as you have made this Antipologia;
It were better for you to put on a buffe coate, & to go fight
in the Army against your enemies, then to sit at home to slander
and accuse your friends, even those who never did, nor thought
harme to you or any other.

Your eighth Reason is a commendation “of the Presbyteriall
way, and that by the testimony of many fathers, and the testimony
of the Scottish Commishioners”

But you say “there will be objected a passage against it, in a booke
lately printed of M. Simpsons”

Answ. I leave Mr. Simpson and you to try it out.

But if you had so defined your Presbyterian governement, and set
downe your bounds and limitts, what, and what not
, according as
you call upon the Apologists, to define their Church way, then
you should have had my judgement of it, here, to the full. But
to judge and determin so of a thing, which is not yet begotten, or
brought forth in this Kingdome, is not so easie a matter, neither
do we know what forme or shape it will have when it is brought
forth. [It may (for ought I know) be a Monster like
INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.Rev. 13.14. the Image of the sevenheaded beast,] and if it bee found defective,
then all, who have taken the Nationall Covenant, are (by your own
confession) to endeavor the exterpation of it,
Yea, “And further D (you D1v 22
(you say) as the Parliament will not be respecters of persons, or partiall,
they must grant no tolleration, but what is agreeable to sound

In this you speake very true, although indeed you crosse many
of your former speeches. And therefore the way to deside the
controversie, is to sease writing of such large tractates, wherein
you doe but (as it were) picke strawes (and make abundance of repititions,
to tryfle away the time
,) (In my judgement) (I say) It were
better (for your selfe and Mr. Samuuel Rutherford, and Mr. A.S.
(or any of you, or whomsoever the Parliament shall apoint,) to
produce Scripture and good reason for your way, (if you can)
and let as many of the Ministers of the Congregations of the Separation,
have freedome to produce Scripture, and sound reason,
for their way, [in a free conference.] And let the houses of Parliament
who are able to judge of the great, and weighty businesses
of the Kingdome (let them I say) have the hearing, and tryall of
the conference, and as things are cleared, so let them allow, or disallow.
And this is according to your counsell (in pag. 304. of
your Antipologia) where you say. “To conclude, If the way of Independencie
be of God, and the Apollogists can make that good, let it be
established by Parliament, and let all come to that; but if not (say
) why then should it be tolerated”
. In this I thinke you say right,
stand to this, and let it come to the tryall; and doe not insinuate
against the Church way, as you have done (in this page, and divers
other places of your booke) where you say, “the Divell would
affect the tolleration of it”
. For that tolleration wch the Devill would
affect, is that tolleration, which you would slanderously father upuon
us, and not the tolleration we seeke for.

And therefore I would have you to correct your language,
and search and try your wayes, (as you exhort the Apollogists to
;) Consider with what spirit, and intention you writ this
booke, Let your conscience reflect upon what is plainely layd downe before
, in the Answer to your former booke, and in this. And
doe not seeke shifts, and superfuges. Consider and receive admonition,
though it be from a woman. I am sure many godly person
and Churches beyond the seas
, are grieved at your writing, as well
as in this Country.

Consider how that though you were, cryed up by the worser sort D2r 23
, whose Champion you were become, and that your confidence
was so, of carying any thing, and saying any thing, yet your witt (so
strong for you,) hath deceived you. Let my councell (therefore) be acceptable
unto you, Repent, Repent, of making this
Antipologie, give
glory to God, and recant it, testifie your Repentance
by comming
out of your false estate, and recall this Antipologia. I have shewed
unto you the greatnesse of your sinne, and folly in particular, in making
this Antipologia, as well as
your former booke: They were
both unseasonable, disordered, sinfull and ungrounded vapours;
scandalizing the Churches of Christ: There are many untruths in
them both, & that not onely where you make naked relations of Tales,
but where you make profession before God, and the World, to bring
sufficient reasons
; when indeede you bring nothing but shadowes
and fig leaves. And this sinne of yours
is agravated, by your labouring
to bring the houses to consent unto you
, to keepe under the people of
God, and to roote them out of the Kingdome, or at least not to
suffer them to performe publike worship, in the way which God
requireth. Now if a simple, and single untruth neede repentance,
what repentance ought there to bee for such a compounded agravated evill as your is? And as I have represented it to your conscience,
that you may repent and be humbled: So I turn you over to the Parliament,
to deale with you for the same

Now if you had beene a Member of a true Church, I could
have admonished you in another way, But you [being in disorder]
could not be dealt with by such an Order.

“For what have I to doe to judge them also that are without”. INTERNAL ERROR. Please report to wwp@neu.edu that regMe is unmatched.I Cor.