Iunderstanding that you are a mighty Champion,
and now mustering up your mighty forces
(as you say) and I apprehending, they
must come against the Hoast of Israel, and
hearing the Armies of the Living God so defied
by you, could nort be withheld, but that
I (in stead of a better) must needs give you
the meeting.

First, Whereas you affirme, “That the Church of God (which is
his House and Kingdome) could not subsist with such provision as their
father gave them: which provision was” (by your owne confession)
“the watering of them by Evangelists, and Prophets, when they were planted
by the apostles, and after planting and watering to have Pastors and
Teacheers, with all other Officers, set over them by the Apostles & their own
Election, yet notwithstanding all this provision, the Father hath made for
them, it was evident” (say you) “they could not well stand of themselves,
without some other helpe.”

This was the very suggestion of Sathan into the hearts of our
first Parents; for they having a desire of some thing more then
was warranted by God, tooke unto them the forbidden fruit,
as you would have the Lords Churches to doe, when you say
they must take some others besides these Churches and Officers,
and that to interpose authoritatively; and these something else
you make to be Apostles, Evangelists, and Elders of other A Churches, A1v 2
Churches, whereas you confessed before, that these are the furniture
of Christs Kingdome; and wee know their authoritie
was limitted, within the bounds of the Word of God: as first,
If any of them would be greater, he must be servant to all. Secondly,
they were forbidden to be Lords over Gods heritage.
Thirdly, they were commanded to teach the people, to observe
onely those things which Christ had commanded them.

And whereas you seeme to affirme, that these Offices were extraordinary
and ceased, and yet the Churches have still neede of them: You seeme to contradict your selfe, and would faine cure it againe,
in that some other way which you say, you have to supply the
want of them, but this other way you have not yet made known:
You presuppose, it may be by some Sinods and Councels, to make a conjunction
of the whole.

If you meane such a Counsell, as is mentioned, Acts 15. 4. 22.
consisting of Apostles and Elders with the whole Church;
then you have said no more than you have said before, and that
which we grant, for this is still the furniture of the Kingdome;
but if you intend that your Counsell should consist of an armie
of Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops, Deanes, Suffragans, with
the rest of that rabble, which be for their titles names of blasphemy,
and such as were bred in the smoake of the pit. I deny
that any of these be ordained of God, for they have no footing
in his word; therefore indeede these are a part of the fruit of
the forbidden Tree, which the Churches of God have taken
and eaten; and this seeking out inventions of their owne, after
that God made them righteous, hath brought them into a state
of Apostasie, even as Jeroboams high places and Calves did the
people of Israel; which may plainely appeare by the Churches of
Asia. If these be that some other supply which you meane and
have produced to helpe the Churches, and Cities of God (as
you call them) to determine for those Churches and Cities
the cases of Doctrine and Discipline in stead of those many
Ministers which, you conceive them now to want, it tends to
make (as they have now done) a conjunction not onely of all
the Churches professing one faith into one body; but also of all
the Armies of the Man of Sinne, and so to confound the
Church and the world together, which the Ministers of the
Gospell ought to divide, by separating the precious from the
vile.Open note seg4-rota Jer. 15. 19.

And whereas you affirme, “The Independent Congregations now
have but few Ministers”;

It is very true, for indeede they are but a few people, and a few A2r 3
few hands will feede a few mouths sufficiently, if God provide
meat.

But whereas you affirme, “That those Congregations may have no
Officer, at all by their owne grounds, and yet be independent.”

I thinke, they conceive by those grounds, the Office onely of
Pastor, and Teacher; but not that the Church of God hath
need at any time of the helpe of any other, then God hath given
and set in his Church, which be all the Officers that are before
mentioned, as Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and
Teachers; and to have recourse to any for counsell, helpe, or
assistance, either of Church or Ministry, which is not of Christs
owne, were very ridiculous. For it is recorded, Ephe. 4. 11. 12.
That he gave thse for the gathering together of the Saints for
the worke of the Ministry, and for the edification of the body
of Christ, being so gathered; The time they must continue is,
till all the Saints be in the unitie of faith. The reason wherefore
they were given, was to keepe people from being tossed too and
fro with every winde of Doctrine.Open note seg5-rota Verse 13. 14,
16.
Compared
with 1. Cor.
12. And these are they, by whom
all the body is coupled and knit together, by every joynt for the
furniture thereof, according to the effectuall power, which is
in the measure of every part, and receiveth increase of the body
unto the edifying of it selfe in love. And this is according to
the promise that Christ made, Matth. 28. 19. 20. to be with his
Ministers in teaching his people to the end of the world.

And thus you may see Mr. Edwards, you cannot gather from
our owne words, that we have neede of the helpe of any other
Churches, or Ministers, to interpose (as you unjustly affirme)
as it may plainely appeare by Mr. Robinsons owne words in the
Justification of the Separation, pag. 121. 122. These are his
words; It is the Stewards duty to make provision for the family;
but what if he neglect this duty in the Masters absence? Must
the whole family starve, yea and the wife also? Or is not some
other of the family best able to be employed for the present necessity?
The like he saith concerning the government of a Ship,
of an Armie and of Commonwealths; alluding to the Church
of Christ. And further expresseth, that as a private Citizen may
become a Magistrate, so a private member may become a Minister,
for an action of necessity to be performed, by the consent
of the rest, &c.

Therefore it appeares plainely by all that hath bin said that the
Churches of Christ may be truely constituted according to the
Scripture, and subsist a certaine time without Pastor and Teacher,
and enjoy the power of Christ amongst themselves having A2 no A2v 4
no dependancie upon any other Church or Churches which
shall claime Authority or superiority over them.

Now in your second Reason, which runneth upon the calling
of the Ministry, you affirme, That the government of the
Independent Congregations is not of divine institution.

Which I utterly denie, and will prove it, by disproveing the
following Instances by which you affirme to prove it.

Whereas you affirme, That their Independencie forces them to
have Ministers without Ordination.

I Answer, it is a plaine case by the foregoing Answer, to
your first Reason, that you speake untruely, for their practise
is there made knowne to be otherwise; and if you will still affirme,
that they have not power so to practise, you will thereby
deny the truth of the Scriptures; for the Apostles were commanded
to teach the Churches, to observe all things whatsoever
Christ had commanded them. But Christ commanded the
Apostles to ordaine Elders in every Church by election; therefore
the Apostles taught the Churches to ordaine Elders by
Election also. And whereas you bid us produce one instance
(if we can) for an ordinary Officer to be made without Ordination,
it is needlesse; for we (whom you call Independant)
strive for no such thing, as you have proved it plainely out
of Mr. Robinsons Booke, Apol. Chap. 1. 18. to which I send you
to learne better.

Further you alleadge, That if they be ordained, it is by persons who
are not in office.

Now if you meane they have no office because they are not
elected, ordained and set apart by the Clergie to some serviceable
administration; I pray you tell me who ordained the Apostles,
Prophets, and Evangelists to their worke or Ministry?
If you will say they were ordained of God, I will grant it, and
doe also affirme that God hath promised the supply of them, to
the end of the world, as before hath beene mentioned, from
Ephe. 4. As also, it appeares by Pauls charge to Timothy; 2 Tim. 2.
2. That what things he had heard of him, among many witnesses,
the same he should commit to faithfull men who should
be able to teach others also: but I verily doe beleeve, that as
Titus, so Timothy heard of Paul that Elders must be ordained by
Election in every city, and that Titus was as much bound to
communicate the things unto others, which he had learned of
Paul, as Timothy was, and Timothy (we know) was to teach faithfullfull A3r 5
men, and those faithfull men were to teach others those
things that they had heard of Timothy, among which things Ordination
was one, as it was delivered to Titus; and we are not to
doubt of Timothius faithfulnesse in the declaring of this part of his
message more than the rest, but if those to whom Timothy delivered
it, were not faithfull in the discharge of their duty: but that
in due time the Ordinances might possibly grow out of use, as
the Churches, did by little and little apostate; yet that hinders
not but that it was still written in the Scripture, that the generations
to come might recover againe the right use of the Ordinances
when God should by his Spirit direct them to know the
same.

Moreover, I affirme, that all the Lords people, that are made
Kings and Priests to God, have a free voyce in the Ordinance
of Election, therefore they must freely consent before there can
be any Ordination; and having so consented they may proceede
to Ordination; notwithstanding they be destitute, of the Counsell
or assistance of any neighbour Church; as if there were no
other Churches in the Land, but onely one company of beleevers
joyned together in fellowship, according to Christs institution.
The promise made in the 14th. of John 12. 13. is made
unto them, where Christ said. “The workes that he did they should doe
also; & that whatsoever they should aske in his name, that he would do for
them, that the Father may be glorified, and that the Spirit of truth should
abide with them for ever. And that he should teach them all things,
and bring all things unto their remembrance,” as it is said in the following
verses of the same Chapter. This (you may see) is the
portion of beleevers, and they that have this portion are the
greatest in the world, and many of them are greater than one,
but many joyned together in a comely order in the fellowship
of the Gospell, according to the Scriptures, are the greatest of
all and therefore have power to ordaine, and to blesse their Ministers
in the name of the Lord. Thus the lesser is blessed of the
greater.

Now Mr. Edwards, I hope you will confesse, that you spake unadvisedly,
when you affirmed, “The maintenance of Independensie, was
the breaking of Gods Ordinance, and violating of that Order and constant
way of Ministers recorded in the Word.”

To this I Answer, that if the Church doe elect one, he must
be elected out of some more & those that are not elected, may be
as able to blesse the Church in the name of the Lord, as he, therefore
one of these who are not elected, being chosen by the whole
Church, to blesse him in the name of the Lord, whom the A3 Church A3v 6
Church hath ordained, is the hand of the whole (who are greatest
of all, and so a sufficient Officer for that worke which hee
is put a part to doe.

Thus you may see (Mr. Edwards) that we doe not hold Ordination
extraordinary and temporary; neither doe we hold
it the least of Gods Institutions, for we have respect unto them
all; But that nothing in matter of Order hath so cleare and constant a practise
as this (as you do affirme) and also say, the whole frame of Church
and Discipline, hath not so much ground in the word for it as this, I
deny and doe affirme, that not onely this, but all Gods Ordinances
have as much ground and footing in Gods Word
also.

Yet notwithstanding you say, that Calvin confesseth, that there is no
expresse precept concerning the imposition of hands: Hath the imposition
of hands no footing in Gods Word? and yet hath not all
the forme of Gods Worship so much footing as it? Here
Mr. Calvin and you, will now pin all the forme of Church and
Discipline, upon unwritten verities.

Further, you rehearse confusedly, the opinion of Zanchius to
strengthen yours who (say you) would have the example of the Apostles and
ancient Church, to be more esteemed of, and to be instead of a command.

I pray you, how doe you know it to be their example, if it be
not written?

And whereas you alledge, that Zanchius saith, it is no vaine Ceremony
but the holy Spirit is present to performe things inwardly, which are
signified by this Ordinance outwardly.

I have granted you that already, where I affirme, that the
Church having the Spirit of God hath power by an instrument
of her owne chusing, to blesse the party to his worke in the
name of the Lord; and I am also bound to beleeve, that
God will accompany that his owne Ordinance (which is performed
by them outwardly) with his owne Spirit inwardly, to
furnish the party (so blessed by them) with the knowledge of
the Scripture, which is able to furnish the man of God to every
part of his duty. And thus you may see, that we have not departed
from Christs way, nor gone any other way, in things
concerning his House and Officers, then he hath directed.

And whereas you demand for what cause Paul left Titus at Crete?
I answer, that I have told you before, that it was to communicate
the things unto others, which hee had learned,
whereof Ordination was one. And no doubt but hee declared
the same to faithfull men, that they might teach others also,
therefore he was there employed in preaching of the Gospell, as well A4r 7
well as if he had gone preaching with Paul.

The next thing you goe upon, is the triall of the gifts of Ministers, and
then you attribute to them which have the greatest measure of the Spirit,
for you say, Examination belongeth to the most skilfull, and they who
have most authority.

All these things are well allowed of by us, for who hath a
greater measure of the Spirit than beleevers? and who hath
more skill than he that hath beene trained up in the Schoole of
Christ? and hath learned this Lesson to be obedient to his
Master Christ in keeping of all his commandments? and who
hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible
Saints? and what makes men visible Saints? if not the manifestation
of their obedience to God the Father, and Christ his
sonne, in the practise of all his Ordinances, and not to have
some other Presbyters present with them, to assist them, (as
you affirme) for by these other Presbyters, I know not yet who
you meane.

And whereas you say, that the Church may be led into errours, or
kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders.

I answer, It is a cleare truth; as wofull experience teacheth
us, who live here in the Land of England.

And whereas you affirme, that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers,
because they have no gifts of prayer.

I Answer, Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers.

And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer.

Here you give the holy Ghost the lie: for Beleevers have received
the Spirit of adoption to cry “Abba Father”,

But say you, they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in
hand.

Here you would seeme to make beleevers, which have the
Spirit of God, to leade them into all truths, more voide of common
reason, then men that have but gifts of nature.

Againe, you say, they have not gifts to make publike exhortation, and
admonition.

To which I answer, If they had first knowledge to feele the
want of a Pastor, and also divers able men out of whom to elect
and ordaine a Pastor, then they out of whom this person is
chosen, are able to exhort, and to admonish: for he that hath
not the gift of teaching, may have the gift of exhortation: againe
the man that undertaketh to teach others, ought to be taught by
God, and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand
the Gainesayers, but a man may give good exhortations, (and that A4v 8
that publikely) that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by
sound Doctrine. By this you may see, the Church of God can
never be without some Ministers, except it be (according to
that spoken by Zachariah) in the day of very small things indeede,
when God shall take away their Ministers by death, prison,
or exile: for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of
Gods owne ordaining; therefore they were not without Ministers
in the very beginning: and still the Churches are planted
by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus, which cannot
be exercised without fit instruments; Yet that they must want
the word preached, or Sacraments administred, till they have
Pastors and Teacher in Office, is yet to be proved, but that page
of Mr. Robinsons, which hath beene alledged before, is sufficient
for this present purpose against you, even to prove that the family
must not be unprovided for, either for the absence or neglect
of a Steward.

But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation, or a supposition,
I cannot well tell whether, That a ruleing Elder may be destitute
of the guift of discerning, and seeme to imply, that if he be destitute,
then all the Church must be destitute, if there be no more Officers then he.

Here you would faine make the ruling Elders, the eyes of the
Church, and then all the rest of the body must be blinde, and so
unfit to have any hand in election, and also voide of the Spirit
of grace to discerne the gifts by, though it hath beene proved
unto you before, that she is the greatest of all, having the Spirit
of God to leade her into all truth, being the Spouse of Christ,
and endowed with all his riches, gifts, and donations.

And thus you still deny the Authority & ability of the Church
giving to the persons in office all power and deserning. But this
is indede according to your practise here in England, but not
according to the minde and Spirit of God.

And for the neighbour Churches Counsell, I deny not, but
that it may be imbraced, and the Saints have cause to praise
God for any helpes of Gods ordaining. But if they want the
helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them, or neighbour
Ministers to direct them: yet if they be a Church of Jesus
Christ, they have (as hath beene said before) power among
themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers; as also the
Spirit of discerning, whereby to try their gifts, and yet be farre
from falling into that evill, which they complaine against
in the Episcopacie (namely) for one man to have the sole power of Ordination.

By all these particulars, you may clearely see all your pretendedded B1r 9
proofes and former assertions disproved, as I promised you,
in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason.

So that these two first Reasons, being (as I conceive) the greatest
Champions, which you have sent out in this skirmage, are
now both slaine, and made voide of all the life that ever was
in them, for, they were made most of suppositions, and of things
that appeared unto you by likelihood, without any ground from
the Scriptures: and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed:
and of some triviall affirmations which were not
grounded upon any truth of Gods Word.

Now, these two being thus turned aside, by one of the meanest
of all the Army of Jesus Christ, you may justly feare, that
all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded.

In your third Reason, You say it is not to be thought, that Christ
would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe;
nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged.

Which thing I grant to be very true; but touching the means
and helpes which you pleade for, that is, some other Synods to
appeale unto, I tell you I know not what Synods you meane.
But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to
settle Church differences, then the comming together of the
Ministers, and Brethren, as it is mentioned in the 15th. of the
Acts, which I have garranted you in my Answers to your former
Reasons.

And whereas you strive for appeales:

I Answer, It is the rule of Christ, that if one brother doe
trespasse against another; and if the brother offending will not
be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended,
he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him;Open note seg6-rota Matth. 18.
15. 16. 17.
but if he will not heare them, the brother offended is to tell the
Church; and if he will not heare the Church, then he is not to
be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican;
if not as a brother, then out of the fellowship: then if the wrong
be any personall injury, as oppression, or fraud, or any other
sinne of these natures, the Law is open, where he may appeale
for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome,
where-ever he liveth; but if it be a matter of scandall; as if hee
should be a drunkard, or incontinent, or the like, then he hath
sufficient remedy, when such a one is cast out of his society. By
this you may see, the way of government given by Christ Jesus,
the King of peace, is the way of peace and righteousnesse.

And whereas you affirme, That if the controversie touching Circumcision,
should have beene ended in the Church of Antiochia, then
parties must have been Judges. B Here

B1v 10

Here, you would seeme by this to make the whole Church
of Antioch leavened with the Doctrine of Justification by Circumcision,
which to doe is a very great slander, as it appeares by
Paul & Barnabas opposing them there, and that Churches sending
Paul and Barnabas to have the Churches advise at Jerusalem concerning
this matter.Open note seg7-rota Acts 15. 1.
2[Gap in transcription—1 numeralflawed-reproduction]

But whereas you affirme, That the Church of Antiochia, judged it
unequall to decide the case among themselves:

I answer, That they judged it unequall, is more than is expressed
in that place: but if that should be granted, it will make
against you, for their reason in sending the matter to Jerusalem,
was, because the parties were members of the Church of Jerusalem,
as it appeares by Acts 15. 1. 5. 24. The first verse sheweth,
that they were men of Judea; the 5th. verse proves that they were
Beleevers; The 24th verse declares, that they went out of the
Church of Jerusalem unto them. And by this you may see plainely,
that this Chapter (above all the Chapters that I can finde)
proves Independencie upon your owne ground; that the
Church of Antiochia judged it an unequall thing for them to
judge the members of the Church of Jerusalem. And by this you
may perceive how you have either erred, not knowing the
Scriptures or else you have done worse in labouring to darken
the truth by evasions, or false glosses.

In your fourth Reason you affirme, That the light and Law of
Nature, with right reason, is against the Independancie of particular
Churches; which is an unjust affirmation as hath been plainely
proved before in the Answer to your third Reason. But a few
words concerning this Reason.

You say it is found necessary, in bodies naturall, that the particular
members doe joyne in one, for the good of the whole, and that the whole
being greater than a part, the severall parts should be subject too, and ordered
by the whole: All this I have granted you freely already in
the Answer to your second Reason; where I have plainely proved
unto you, that the hands of the Church are ordered by the
whole body, in the Ordination of the Ministery: And this is
according to the very Scripture it selfe, for the holy Ghost
speaketh so, in 1 Cor. 12.Open note an24-rota 1 Cor. 12. Comparing the Church of God to
the naturall body of a man; and therefore when the hand lanceth
the foote, it cannot be said properly to be the action of the
hand alone, because the hand is set a worke, by the body; neither
can the body set the hand a worke, if it be destitute of the power B2r 11
power, for the motion of the body commeth not from the hand,
but the motion of the hand from the body; and thus you may
see I have granted your comparison. And the nearer politicke
bodies doe goe to this Rule; the more orderly they are guided;
for as all the cities and country of England, make up but one
Kingdome, and all the people in England ought to be subject to
one King; so all the Independant Congregations in England, and
out of England, (that are guided by the Lawes of Christ) make
up but one Kingdome spiritually to him that is their
King.

Now concerning Armies; though I be very ignorant in these
things, yet thus much I conceive, that all the Armies, that belong
to the Kingdome ought to be under the banner of their owne
King; even so all the particular Congregations of Christ, are to be
guided by the Lawes of their owne Captaine Christ, who rideth
before them with his garments dipt in blood, and they follow
after him riding upon white horses, Revel. 19. 11, 12. 13, 14.

We reade also in the Scripture of another armie, which
were gathered together against the Lord, and against his
Christ: And this armie (I conceive) consisteth of those Locusts,
which ascended out of the bottomlesse pit, Rev. 9.. And
these, as I told you before, are Arch-Bishops, Diocesan Bishops,
Deanes, Prebends, &c. and the rest of the rabble; and these
also have a King over them, which is the Angell of the bottomlesse
pit, who is said to be the great red Dragon the Devill
and Sathan, Rev. 12. 3. 9. and 20.2 who gave unto this armie
his power and throne, and great authority, Rev. 13. 2. Therefore,
to any Counsells that are held, or Canon Lawes that are enacted
by any Captaine of this armie, the Churches of Christ ought
not to submit, though they should be commanded, by any
Statute Law of the Kingdome; for those Statute Lawes are not
according to Christs Rule, but ought by all Councells of State
to be repealed.

And whereas you say, It is alledged by the Separation; that hold Independancie,
That the Magistrate of Leyden cannot governe in
Delph:

This I hope you will grant; for I am sure the Magistrates of
Coventry cannot execute their office in Shrewsbury, neither can the
one Towne chuse Magistrates for the other: and this still proves
Independencie, for either of these may chuse their owne, and
guide their owne at all times, except they forfeit their Charter.

Now whereas you say, the people alleadge for themselves, that the B2 Law B2v 12
Law of nature teacheth them to make a Covenant; though there be neither
precept nor practise of it in the word.

I suppose you misconster their sayings, for the text alleadged
in Thessalonians 4 9 doth not prove that brotherly love was never
written of in the Scripture; but that it had beene so sufficiently
taught of God by written precepts, that it needed not to be written
againe. Besides, I am able to prove by the Scripture, that
there is both precept and practise for a Church Covenant: the
which I will answer you in the Answer to your 6th. Reason,
where you begge the Question.

Concerning what is asserted by some Divines of Scotland, That in
such things as are alike common to the Church, and Commonwealth, and
have the same use in both, and that whatsoever natures light directeth
the one, directeth the other also.

You know (by what hath beene formerly spoken) I have
fully assented unto it.

I also agree with Amesius, as farre as he agrees with the truth;
but to agree with you in that falsehood, that the Government
of independant Churches, is against the light of nature and
right Reason, that I have denied, and disproved sufficiently already.

This having answered every particular thing in this Reason,
that hath not beene answered already, I proceede to the
Fifth.

In your 5th Reason you affirme, That there be many Rules in
Scripture, that doe require the combination of Churches into Synods;
for proofe whereof you say, that Amesius confesseth, the Rules and
Commands to be such as these; Let all things be done to edification,
decently and in order, Cor. 14. 26. 40. and follow after the things
which make for peace, Rom. 14. 19. So Phil. 4. 8. And you conclude
that Synods are found to be for edification, peace, and order. But you
have brought no Scripture yet that proveth it; and I know all
Scripture is against it, therefore I deny it. And as for the Scriptures
alleadged (as you say) by Amesius, they are such as were
spoken to particular Congregations: and in the particular Congregation
of Colosse, Paul beheld a comely order, notwithstanding
there were no Synod consisting of any but onely the members
and Ministers of that Congregation, Col. 2. 5.

And as for commands, which you say are some generall, and others particular;
Here you labour by evasions to turne away the truth; for
you your selfe know, that every particular command reacheth
not to the generall, though a generall command reach to every B3r 13
every particular. Now if you can shew us in the Scriptures any
generall command, that all the Churches should, or an example
that all the Churches did gather a Councell of some Ministers
out of every particular Congregation, to make Decrees
or Lawes to impose upon the whole, then you will speake
speake something to the purpose, but as yet you have not spoken
one word that proveth any such thing.

And whereas you alleadge that Scripture, That the Spirits of the
Prophets must be subject to the Prophets, 1 Cor. 14. 32.

I Answer, That that is given to particular Congregations;
and therefore not to all in a Province or Nation, and so not to
Synods: And Paul never sought to winne credit not obedience to Orders
established by himselfe, (as you say) for he never made any other
Orders, nor taught the people any other thing than what he had
received of the Lord Jesus, as it is plaine in 1 Cor. 11. “Be ye followers
of me” (saith he) “as I am of Christ”, and in the 23. verse of the
same Chapter, “I have received of the Lord” (saith he) “that which I have
delivered unto you.” Paul also writes unto these Corinthians, (whom
he had converted unto the faith) “to be followers of him”, 1 Cor. 4. 16.
in ver.verse 17. he sheweth them, that therefore he sent Timothy unto
them, to the end that Timothy should put them in remembrance
of Pauls wayes in Christ, as Paul had taught every where in every
Church. Here you may see Paul brings not the Example of
the Synod before them, nor layes upon them any Decree or
Command, to practise otherwise than he himselfe had learned in
Christ; yet I hope you will not deny, but that this Church
spoken of, was a Church of Christ as well as the Church of Colosse.

Now the next thing to be considered is, that which you alleadge
of Pauls submission, to the practise of what was agreed upon, by the common
consent of James, and the rest of the Elders, Acts 21. from 18.
to 27.

The Reason why they counselled Paul to doe the thing, was,
because of the information that the Jewes had then against Paul;
that he taught the people to forsake Moses, Acts 21. 21. Now I
hope you will not deny, but that this was a false affirmation.

The thing wherein they conceived he transgressed was, by
bringing in Trophimus an Ephesian, (as they thought into the
Temple) because they saw him with him in the citie.

This was but their supposition, as it appeares in the 29 verse
of this Chapter.

Now what the Elders counselled Paul to doe, in respect of
giving offence to the Jewes, was no injunction to any to follow B3 the B3v 14
the same example, except it were in the same case.

Now Paul himselfe was a Jew, and taught all men that Christ
was come to fulfill the Law, and not to destroy the Law; therefore
he condescended to circumcise Timothy because his mother
was a Jew, and the Jewes knew his father was a Grecian.Open note seg8-rota Act. 16. 1. 3.
But Titus a Grecian was not compelled to be circumcised; yea,
though there were false brethren craftily crept in, to spy out their
liberty; Paul gave not place to them, no not for an houre,
Gab. 2. 3 4. 5.

Now the things that the Elders counselled Paul to doe, was
to purifie himselfe, with them that had a vow, and to contribute
with them; and the reason wherefore they counselled Paul to
doe this, was, that it might appeare to the Jewes that Paul was a
Jew, and not an uncircumcised person, for the Jewes knew that
it was a sinfull thing to bring into the Temple any uncircumcised
person in heart or flesh, Ezek. 44. 7.

Now Paul in all this did nothing but what was commanded
in the Law, as purifications and vowes, &c.

Moreover, this counsell of James and the Elders unto Paul,
was not generall to the beleeving Jewes; neither was it generally
or particularly to the Gentiles, but particularly to Paul, and
the rest with him, because of the false report which the Jewes
had received of him.

And as this Counsell was not generall, so it was not perpetuall,
but served to put an honorable end to the Law, which
Christ came to fulfill, and not to destroy.

By all this it appeares, it maketh nothing for any counsell that
you plead for, to establish any unwritten verities; for such
counsels are the counsels of darknesse: because they are not
according to the Law and the Testimony, it appeares there is no
light in them: therefore they are not of authoritie to bind any
particular member of the Church, much lesse the generall, as
you say they are.

But seeing you confesse, that no Synod can say, It seemeth good unto
the holy Ghost and to us; it plainely appeares that your counsels
presume without the counsell of the holy Ghost. But you may
see, that the Church of Jerusalem did nothing without the counsell
of the Spirit, neither determined of any thing, that was not
written in the Scripture. So the Churches of God now ought
to presume to do nothing but what the written Word allowes
them; being taught the true meaning thereof by the Spirit that
God hath given them.

Moreover, the counsell of Jerusalem imposed nothing upon B4r 15
upon the Gentiles for a Law, but counselled them to abstaine
from some necessary things, which would be either offensive to
the Jewes, or sinfull in themselves, Acts 15. 29. 20. 28. 29.

Now seeing the Church of Jerusalem hath done nothing, but by
the counsell of the written word, in forbidding things sinfull in
themselves and offensive to their brethren, it appeares to be
plainely against your Synods, and dependencie in government,
which in cases difficult, doe establish things which have no
footing in Gods word; neither have they, by your owne confession,
in their Counsels any one, who is immediatly and infallibly imnspired by
the Spirit, and able of himselfe to satisfie the controversie, they being by
your owne confession inferiour to Paul and
Barnabas; And Paul and
Barnabas might teach nothing but what was taught in the Law
and the Prophets. And therefore, by this it appeares you have
not grounded any affirmation or supposition upon Gods word;
for the proving either of your Synods or dependencie.

In your sixth Reason you affirme that the government of the Church
by Synods, is no where forbidden by God in the new Testament, either
directly, or by consequence.

But I doe affirme the contrary, and prove it thus;

That whatsoever Government is not commanded by God is
accursed, and that is plainely manifested in the New Testament,
Rev. 22. 18.

But your government by Synods is not commanded by
God, and therefore is accursed; as it will appeare in the following
discourse.

Whereas you say, that all the Ministers are greater than one:

I have already proved, that the Church of Christ is greater
than all the Ministers.

You say Synods appoint no other office or Officer in the Church, which
Christ hath not appointed. Open note seg9-rota See the Answer
to his
second Reason
against
Independencie.

Me thinkes you are strangely put to your shifts, that dare not
tell the world what you meane by your Synods. But if you
meane the Councell or Convocation that used to sit at Pauls, I have told you already they are none of the Councell of Christ, neither
hath he appointed that councell or any other councell, to
make, or ordaine, either Officers or Offices for his Church, therefore
so to affirme is blasphemie, for he himselfe is their Lord and
Law-giver, and hath instituted every particular Ordinance in
his Church, that the Church hath neede of, therefore it is (as
hath been said already) against the Law and light of nature, and B4v 16
and contrary to edification, order, peace, purenesse, lovelinesse,
for any to decree for, or injoyne upon, the Assemblies of the
Saints any other practise but those that the Apostles have taught,
which they themselves had learned from the Lord Jesus; but
as for you Mr. Edwards, it appeareth plainely that you doe not
understand nor see the forme of the Lords House; which causeth
you to call upon any to produce a particular word, or rule, for the
order of Gods worship, what must be performed first; what second, what
third, what fourth, and so of the rest; and that no Ordinance, and part
of worship may be in another order. Further, you chalenge them if they
can, to shew a particular word or rule out of the New Testament, for
their Church Covenant, which you say, is the forme of the Church.

You also inquire for the forme of Excommunication, and Ordination,
and gestures in the severall Ordinances of God. And this you say they are
not able to doe, but onely in generall rules.

I have told you already that generall rules reach to every perticular,
and that is no more than you seeme to know already: for
you have confessed, that there are generall rules to teach every
one of these particulars, which you could not chuse but acknowledge;
otherwise you would have made Christ not so faithfull
in his house as Moses. But the more you know, the greater is
your sinne, in that you labour to turne away the light; and you
are still repairing of those thresholds, which have beene set up
by Gods thresholds. If I had any hope therefore that you
would be ashamed of all that you have done, I would shew
you, though not all that I see, yet what I am able to expresse of
the forme of the house of God, and the paterne thereof, and the
going out thereof, and the comming in thereof, and all the Ordinances
thereof, and the Lawes thereof and write it in your
sight, that so you may keepe the whole fa-shion thereof, and
all the Ordinances thereof, and doe them.Open note seg10-rota See Ezek.
43. 11.

As for the Ordinance of Election, Ordination, and Excommunication
&c. I have declared already the forme to them that
have their eyes open to see it. But they cannot see the forme of
the house, that have not repented them of the evills that they
have done, therefore I will cease to strive with such persons, for
they may live and stay long enough, and be of no Church of
Christ.

In your 7th Reason you say, That consociation and combination, in
way of Synods, is granted by themselves, (and you produce for your
Authors these foure; Christ on his Throne, Examination of Prelates
Petition, Syons Prerogative Royal, and the Protestation Protested; which Authors C1r 17
Authors, if the Reader please to examine, shall find cleare against you)
That which you have gathered here from these Authors is, that they
grant that one Church should be content that matters of difference and
importance should be heard by other Churches, as also to be advised
and counselled by other Churches, &c.

I answer, though all should confesse, that it is profitable to
have the counsell of their brethren and neighbour Churches in
doubtfull cases, yet this will be farre from proving the lawfulnesse
of your Synods; as may appeare by the Authors that your
selfe hath here alledged, for they intend no such Consociation,
nor Combination, which you have mentioned: but seeing your
selfe would have something which you cannot prove, you
would begge of others to grant it or prove it for you.

Concerning the Orders, or Decrees of the Church of Jerusalem ( Acts
16 4.) they were not such Decrees as were alterable, but such as
were warranted by God, and a perpetuall Rule for all the
Churches of the Gentiles.

You neede not tell me what Amesius speaketh of the parts of
Discipline, as if any of the Separation, held it to consist all in
Excommunication; for I have told you already, that they have
seene the forme of the Lords house, and have respect unto all his
Ordinances, and doe not take one for all.

Neither is it granted you, that admonitions and reproofes, and decreeing
of Excommunications should be by Officers of other Churches, towards
members of any Congregation, though in the same constitution; the
contrary most evidently appeareth, even by the practise of the
Church of Antioch, who brought the matter to the Church of Jerusalem,
which concerned the Church of Jerusalems members,
neither may any of the Churches now be subject to the censures
of other Congregations, except they must be subject to humane
Ordinances; but in case, both the members, and the Church,
be obstinate in any knowne sinne, then are the Churches of
God bound to admonish her, and reprove her, and reject her;
as if the Church of Antiochia had found the Church of Jerusalem
all leavened with the Doctrines of Justification by circumcision;
then had the Church of Antiochia power to admonish, reprove,
and reject the Church of Jerusalem, and not have communion
with them, if they persisted obstinate in that evill; for
the Church of Antiochia was not inferiour in power to the
Church of Jerusalem.

In the beginning of your Eight Reason you say they grant and confesse,
That Churches of one constitution ought to withdraw from, and
renounce communion and fellowship with a Congregation or Church
that is fallen into sinne, as false Doctrine, and evill discipline, &c.

I answer, I have granted you, that in the conclusion of the
answer to your 7th Reason, if the Church stand obstinate in
sinne and will not be reclaimed.

But that they should be complained on to Synods and Classes, and subject
to their censures, that is but a question of your owne begging, and remaines
for you to prove, and denied of me.

The next thing you would know is the difference betweene excommunication
and rejection, and would seeme to make them both one.

To which I answer, Titus had power to reject a person, Open note an25-rota Tit 3. 10. but
we doe not reade that he had power of himselfe to excommunicate
that person.

A wicked man may be said to reject God when he rejecteth
his Word. So Saul rejected God, ( 1 SamSamuel. 15.23. therefore God rejected
him from being King, vers.verse 26. but did he excommunicate
God? So the people of Israel rejected God 1 SamSamuel. 8.7 and 10 19.
Did they therefore excommunicate God?

Here Mr. Edwards, you may see that Excommunication is
more than rejection, as it also plainely appeares by Pauls
words, 1 Cor. 5 4.5. where he delivers unto them the forme of
Excommunication, in these words; “When ye are gathered together,
and my spirit, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that such a one
by the power of our Lord Jesus Christ be delivered unto Sathan &c.”. Here
Mr. Edwards, you may plainely see the forme of this part
of the Lords house; This you see Paul had determined before;
and also that Pauls spirit was together with the Church
in the action doing; yet Paul tooke not upon him that power of
himselfe, but committed the action to the Church who had the
power of our Lord Jesus Christ, as he himselfe testifieth, which
plainely proves, that the Church had the power that Paul had
not, for though Paul was a good Counsellor, yet he was no executioner
in that action, but as a member for his part. Here
Mr. Edwards you may see the difference betweene rejection and
excommunication; a man in rejecting the Law of God may be
said to reject God, and he that addes to, or diminisheth from the
Lawes of God, rejects God, in rejecting the counsell of God,
which injoynes him neither to adde, nor diminish: but you by
pleading for your unknowne Synods and ungrounded dependence,
reject the counsell of God: and so doe all those, that
assist you in it. The

C2r 19

The next thing you affirme is; That this government of Independencie
(which I have proved to be Christs government) overthrowes
the Communion of Saints.

To which I answer, This appeares to be contrary by that
which hath beene said already; as for example, the difference betweene
the Church of Antiochia, and the Church of Jerusalem;
turned to good, because they undertooke not the authority to
determine the case themselves, as hath beene said; because it
was against the members of the Church of Jerusalem: and this
increased union and communion in both Churches, as we may
plainely see, for Peter communicated unto them what God had
revealed unto him: and Paul & Barnabas declared what God had
done by them. James calls them back to consider what Peter
had declared; and backes it with the Scripture, manifesting
how it agreed with the words of the Prophets, as you may reade
at large in Act. 15. Thus you may see what sweet Communion
was betweene these Churches that were both Independant.

Now, whereas you say it cannot be in a Christian Common-wealth, or
Nation.

I doe affirme it may stand with Christs Church in a Common-wealth,
as may plainely appeare in the three first Chapters
of the Revelations, which testifies that there were seven Churches
in Asia, and these seven Churches were compared to seven golden
Candlestickes, Open note an26-rota Rev. 1. 20. and every Candlesticke stood by it selfe,
and held forth her owne light, as appeares by those severall messages,
which were sent to those seven Churches, for had they had
a dependencie one upon another in respect of power; then one
message would have served unto them all; and what sinne any
of the Churches or Angels were guilty of, would have been laid
unto the charge of all the Churches and Angels, but wee see it
was otherwise. As for instance, there was none charged for
suffering the woman Jezebel to teach the people, to commit fornication,
and to eate things sacrificed to Idols,Open note seg11-rota Rev. 2. 20. but the Angell
of Thyatira; by this you may plainely see there was not one Angell
set over them all, not one Synod oppointed to judge and
correct them all, which is the thing you labour for. Yet it
cannot be said that the Independancie of these seven Churches
hindred their communion, either with Christ their head, or one
with another; neither was it any disturbance to the Commonwealth
or Nation wherein they lived.

And here you cannot say that I have evaded, but have answered
you directly, to these your doubts, and suppositions, and to
many of your Iffs, which have beene your spies sent out in this
Scout; And moreover, I will answer all your many Reasons as C2 I C2v 20
I come to them (though they be joyned in battle with these) I
meane your following Reasons against Toleration; and also
batter, or drive backe your answers which you have made to
the Six Reasons, which you say be theirs, and yet neither this
Scout, nor the joyned, nor the subjoyned forces, shall be able
to discover what strength is on my side, although they be formed
by you in battle aray.

In the beginning of your first Reason against Toleration, you grant,
that the Scriptures speake much for Toleration, and bearing with
one another in many things, both in matters of opinion and practise,
and the Scriptures you quote are very pertinent to this purpose, but
alwayes provided, they are to be understood as spoken properly to particular
Congregations, and not unto any whole Nation.

But to stand for the Toleration of the maintenance of Heresie,
and Schisme, is not the Toleration that we plead for (as farre as
hath beene yet made knowne) but rather your insinuation: for I
have declared unto you already in the driving backe of the first
Scout of your Army,. That God hath provided a way and
meanes to purge every Congregation of his from all such persons
that doe offend, whether it be in matters of Faith or Order.
Neither doe any that stand for Christian liberty comdemne
them for cruelty, or that it is against charitie.

For if we compare the Church with one man or a few then it
will easily appeare, that the one doth out-weigh the other: And
you say, Calvin saith, “It is cruell mercy which preferres one man, or a
few, before the Church”: To these words of Calvin I doe fully agree
unto, for they are of the same nature with my former Answers
to your Reasons against Independancie, where I have proved
against you, that the weight and power lieth in the Church and
that the Church is above the Ministers, and that the Ministers have C3r 21
have their power by the Church to exercise in the Church, and
not the Church by the Ministers.

The next thing to be considered in this your Reason, is your
peremptory affirmation, but grounded upon no Scripture,
(namely) That to set up Independant and separated Churches, is a Schisme
in it selfe, and that it will make great disturbance in the Church, both to
the outward peace, and to the faith and conscience of the people of the
Kingdome.

Now that it is a Schisme in it selfe, I deny; and prove the
contrary thus;

God hath commanded all his people to separate themselves
from all Idolatry Open note an27-rota 2 Cor. 6.
14, 15. 16.
17. and false worshipping Open note an28-rota Rev. 14. 9,
10, 11. 12. and false worshippers
Open note an29-rota Chap. 18.
4. (and therefore it is no Schisme) except you will make God
the Author of Schisme) & this is according to the Prophet Esaiahs
words, Esay 1. which is the first Lesson that every one ought to
learne; even to cease to doe evill. But I hope it will not be denied
but that they are to learne another lesson, which is, to learne to
doe well: but to doe well is to keepe all Gods Commandements,
and to obey God rather then men.

Now Gods commands to his people, is, that they learne to
know the forme of the house (as I have told you before) and all
the Ordinances of the house, and to doe them, Ezek. 43 11. but
the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome under the Gospell, (amongst
the rest) are Doctrine, Fellowship, breaking of Bread,
and Prayer; which Ordinances the Saints continued stedfastly
in, and are commended for their constancie in the same,
Acts 2. 42 and that in every particular Church or Congregation,
though there were divers in one Nation, and yet I hope you
will not affirme it was any disturbance to the Nation (otherwise
then Christ hath shewed shall ever be, that the seed of the Serpent,
shall persecute the seede of the Woman) for Gods people are
said to be a peaceable people and the Lord himself hath said that
he hath set them in the world as Lambs among Wolves. Now
there must needs be a disagreement betweene Lambes and
Wolves but the Lambes are not the cause thereof. By this you
may see that Separation is not a Scisme, but obedience to Gods
Commandement.

And for any Magistrate to give way for men to separate,
from the worship of the Kingdome established by Law (if that
worship be not according to Gods Law) is the Magistrates duty;
and the Magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because
there is no sinne committed. Therefore the Magistrate
ought not to forbid the practise of Gods Worship; when hee C3 hath C3v 22
hath power to command it; for he is set up for the practise of
those that doe well, and for the punishment of evill doers.

And therefore you did well, when you admonished the Parliament in
your Epistle,Open note an30-rota See the 3. &
4 leafe of
his Epistle. to cast out of the way all stumbling blockes, and to breake
downe all Images, and Crucifixes; and to throw downe all altars, and
remove the High places; and to breake to pieces the brazen Serpents
which have beene so abused to Idolatry and Superstition. So then you
grant, that much may be done (as it seemeth by your speech) and
yet if there be not a full reformation, even to the throwing
downe of the High places, it will prove a blemish to the reformers.

You say, he that doth not forbid, when he hath power he commands. Open note an31-rota Reason 1.
Pag. 23.

But I hope you doubt not but the Parliament hath power,
and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid (by your owne
ground) they have or doe command.

But in the Protestation, they have not forbidden Gods Worship,
which is according to his Word; but they have Protested
(and have injoyned others so to doe) to maintaine and defend
the Protestant Religion, expressed in the Doctrine of the
Church of England, against all Popery, and Popish Innovations
within this Realme &c. And in the Interpretation of their
meaning of the said Oath, they binde us neither to the set forme
of Worship, Discipline, or Government, nor any Rites or
Ceremonies of the said Church of England.

Now if we must withstand Popery, and Popish Innovations,
then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a
whole Nation a Church both good and bad, without separating
the precious from the vile, and also such Synods or Counsels that
decree, and make Lawes, and impose them upon any Church
to keepe, having not the Word of God to warrant them; for
these are Popish Innovations, and to be withstood by us, according to our Oath.

And truely Mr. Edwards, you might have asked the independant
Ministers a question in private, (for you knew where to
find them) and not have propounded so silly a question before
the Parliament, when there was none there to answer you.

Your Question is, Whether it be fitting, that well meaning Christians
should be suffered to goe to make Churches?Open note an32-rota Pag. 23.

To this I Answer, It is fitter for well meaning Christians
than for ill-meaning Christians, for well-meaning Christians
be the fittest on the earth to make Churches, and to choose
their Officers; whether they be Taylors, Felt-makers, Button-
makers, Tent-makers, Shepherds, or Ploughmen, or what honest Trade C4r 23
Trade soever, if they are well-meaning Christians; but illmeaning
Priests are very unfit men to make Churches; because
what they build up with one hand, they pull downe with the
other.

Further you seeme to feare the spreading of Heresies, if there be not a
hindrance of these Assemblies.

But you should rather feare that your owne glory would be
eclipsed by their gifts and graces; for they are not men of so
meane parts as you would make them: but are able to divide
the Word of God aright by the spirit that God hath given them.
Therefore I would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for
your selfe and for the evills that you have done. For Christ will
never suffer any to perish for whom he died.

In your second Reason you say, the Toleration desired will not helpe to
heale the Schismes and Rents of your Church.

To which I answer, that if you Church be not the Church
of Christ, it will not heale it indeede, for though the Prophets
would have healed Babel, it could not be healed.

You say that Ministers and people will not submit to the Reformation
and Government setled by Law.

It is very like so, if it be not free from Innovations of Popery,
because they are sworne to the contrary.

But you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes, that the Govermnnment
of your Church is not ordered according to the Word of God.

To this I answer; If you meane the Church of Englands
Government, establised by the Canon Law. I thinke it
is out of doubt with the most, for they that understand but
little, doe see and know that that Government is vaine and Popish;
and that is the reason (as I conceive) why so many refuse
to conforme to it: and if you feare that that will prove so great
a division, you may doe well to counsell the Magistrates, to
expell all such Government, and to reject all such Synods and
Counsells, and to labour to understand the minde of God, and
to set up his Government over Beleevers in the Kingdome of
England.

And whereas you say, that many of the people who yet be not in this
Church way, are possessed with these principles (of the Independant way)
and much looking towards it:

I say it is pitty they should any longer be led about by the
way of the Wildernesse.

2. You doe affirme, that the mindes of multitudes of Professors in England C4v 24
England, and especially in the City of London, are upon all occasions, very
apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or discipline, that is not commonly received
by the Church.

I answer, Indeede the Proverbe is verified upon them. The
burned child dreads the fire; for they have beene so long deceived by
your false glosses, that now their eyes being a little open, the
light appeareth very sweete unto them; yea, although they see men
but like trees, as the blinde man, when his eyes began to be opened,
who had beene blinde from his birth.

The third thing which you have laid downe in this Reason, is; That
the Ministers will not be tied, from preaching those points in publike, nor
from speaking of them in private.

To which I answer, I hope they will not indeed, for it were
their great sinne, if they should not declare Gods whole Councell,
so farre as he hath revealed it unto them.

But if they would (you say) the people both men and women, are so
strangely bold and pragmaticall, and so highly conceited of their way as the
Kingdome of Christ and the onely way of Christ, that out of those principles,
they would be drawing many of their friendship and kindred; and
many would (say you) come unto them.

I answer, that this (I hope) you count a vertue, for it is the
property of the Sheepe when they fare well, to call their fellowes.
But Hogges will not doe so.

The fourth thing to be minded is (that you say) Liberty, the power of
government, and rule, to be in the people, are mighty pleasing to flesh and
blood, especially in meane persons, and such as have beene kept under.

To which I answer, that they that have beene kept under,
have beene kept under by the tyranny of the Man of Sinne; This
you confesse to be especially the poore, upon whom those
Taskemasters have laid the greatest burthens. Therefore for
them to affect liberty is no wonder.

And whereas you say they would have the power and Rule:

I answer, It is not any power or Rule which is pleasing to
the flesh (as you speake, thinking them to be like those Priests,
Whose god is their belly, whose glory is their shame, who minde earthly
things) but it is the power of Christ which they stand for, as
they are members of the Churches of Christ; to which Churches
Christ the King thereof hath given all power in spirituall
things.

And that the Church of Christ consisteth of meane persons,
is no wonder; for wee have learned, that the poore receive the
Gospell, and you know you have granted, that it stands with
the light and Law of Nature, That the liberty, power, and rule, should D1r 25
should be in the whole, and not in one man or a few; so that
the power must rest in the body; and not in the Officers, though
the Church be never so poore.

Now the fifth thing you minde in this Reason is, That Tolleration will
be made use of to strengthen their way.

And you also conclude, it will be granted, that the ablest Ministers
could not answer them, and therefore were content they should have a Tolleration.

You doe very well to feare the worst, but you had done better
if you had armed your selfe against them, and answered the
Scriptures, they bring by Scripture: But it is a plaine case, you
could not do that, & therfore your feare was just; but if you were
a wellminded man, or a wellmeaning Christian man, you should
not have feared the comming of the truth to light, nor have been
afraid of reformation, because it would worke to your greater
divisions, and rents, for Christ came not to set peace upon the
earth, (as I have told you before) but the seede of the Serpent will
be ever playing his part.

In your third Reason you affirme, That Tolleration will breed divisions,
and Schismes, disturbing the peace and quiet of Churches, and
Townes.

I answer, I have told you already, we plead for no tolleration
that shall disturbe the peace of Churches or Townes.

Moreover, you say, it will not onely doe so, but it will also breed divisions
in families betweene husband and wife, brother, and brother.

To which I answer, There was a division in the first Family
that ever was, and brother rose up against brother, but Tolleration
was not the cause of it; but the malice of Sathan in
the seed of the Serpent, as it hath beene, and is now at this
day.

And this is according to Christs words, Luke 12. 52, 53 which
saith, “That there shall be five in one house, two against three, and three
against two, &c” and in Matth. 10. 34, 35, 36. “Thinke not” (saith he)
“that I come to send peace into the earth, I came not to send peace, but
the sword: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in Law against
her mother in Law, and a mans enemies shall be they of his owne household;”
and moreover, in Luke 21. 16. our Saviour doth declare,
“that we shall be betrayed, both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolkes,
and friends.” D Now D1v 26
Now if Christ may be said to be the Author of evill, then you
may say that Toleration of true Religion is the cause of this division.

Againe you say, “(O how) this will occasion disobedience.”

To this your Lamentation I answer. O that you would remember
the ruleOpen note an33-rota 1 Tim. 6. 1 that every servant ought to count his Master
worthy of all honour; and in the judgement of charitie beleeve,
that persons professing the Gospel will learne that lesson.

Next you say O! how will this take away that power & authority which
God hath given to Husbands, Fathers, and Masters, over wives, children,
and servants.

To this I answer, O! that you would consider the text in 1. Cor.
7. which plainly declares that the wife may be a beleever, & the
husband an unbeleever, but if you have considered this text, I
pray you tell me, what authority this unbeleeving husband hath
over the conscience of his beleeving wife; It is true he hath authority
over her in bodily and civill respects, but not to be a
Lord over her conscience; and the like may be said of fathers
and masters, and it is the very same authority which the Soveraigne
hath over all his subjects, & therfore it must needes reach
to families: for it is granted that the King hath power (according
to the Law) over the bodies, goods, and lives of all his subjects;
yet it is Christ the King of Kings that reigneth over their
consciences: and thus you may see it taketh away no authority
which God hath given to them.

The next thing you say is, that they cannot be certaine, that their servants
and children sanctifie the Lords day.

To which I answer, that indeede unbeleeving Masters take as
little care of this as they that have given liberty to prophane
the Lords Day; but beleeving Parents and Masters, may easily
know (if their children or servants be of any Congregation)
what their life and conversation is, and therefore this can hinder
no duties, or workes of Families (as you falsely affirme) nor
crosse the good and peace of Families.

By this you may see, that this your groundlesse affirmation, is
no good Reason against Toleration.

And therefore the Court of Parliament (to whom you submit
for judgement) may easily see that good members both for
Churches and Common-wealths, may issue out of such Families,
that live under Christs government, and that such Families
may be good Nurseries, both for Church and Commonwealth.

In your fourth Reason you doe affirme, that there will be great danger
of disputes amongst you about Government and Worship, and Dotrine,
and practises (in the Conclusion) you say, it will be about a question
where Saints goe when they die, whether to heaven or a third place.

I Answer, This is a question I never heard amongst the Separates,
(or any of those whom you call Independant men), but
amongst the Papists of Rome, and England.

The next thing is, about sitting with hats on to breake bread?

I Answer, this may be a question indeed, but not to breede division;
for it may be as lawfull for one man to sit covered & another
uncovered, as it may be lawfull for one man to receive it
sitting, and another lying in bed. But if any man list to be contentious,
the Churches of God have no such custome.

In your fifth Reason you affirme, that the Ministers of the Kingdome,
can have little assurance, of the continuance of their flockes to them, if
such a toleration be granted, but that the tolerated Churches will admit
them into fellowship, and increase Churches out of their labours: and
that they should doe little else but spend and be spent.

To this I answer, that if you were the Ministers of Christ, as
you would be taken to be, it might be your comfort, joy, and
glory, for it was the Apostles worke to gather the Saints, and to
travell in birth of children; and they did not grudge that they
were added unto the Churches of Christ, but tooke care for
them being so added, for the care of all Churches lay upon
them, and therefore they were as Fathers, and Nurses, unto them;
and the Gospell admits of no such theft as to steale away members
from other Churches: but if men draw neere to the truth
(which never were members of any Church) and offer themselves
to joyne unto us; we may admit them upon good experience
of their life and conversation, for those members that travelled
from one Church to another, were commended unto
those Churches by Letters from the Church where they were
members, or else they could not have beene admitted: and thus
you may see the way of the Gospell admits of no such disorder.

Now whereas you say, that this Toleration upon any light occasion of
demanding dues; or preaching against any thing they like not, opens a
wide doore, and will invite them to disert their Ministers.

I answer by demanding of that which you call dues; you
may indeede give just occasion, for you may demand for due,
that which is not due; as all the Priests of England doe. LikewiseD2 wise D2v 28
by preaching of Doctrine, you may give just occasion, if
you justifie the wicked, and condemne the just, and make sad
the hearts of those whom God would not have made sad; and
then if your people flye from you, you may thanke your selves;
but concerning what you count to be your due, I will declare
hereafter.Open note an34-rota For this
see the Reply
to his
Answer to
their third
Reason for
Toleration.

Now in the beginning of your sixth Reason, you say, that liberty will
be an undoubted meanes and way of their infinite multiplication and
increase, even to thirty fould.

Truely I thinke you are afraid, as Pharaoh was, least the Lords
people should grow mightier then you.

Next you say, if the Parliament could like to have more of the Greede
of them, and have a delight to have multitudes exempted from the Ecclesiasticall
Lawes of the Land, &c.

I answer, it is no disgrace to the Parliament, if they should so
delight, though never Parliament before had done the like.

Moreover, you say, they have increased within this nine moneths,
without a toleration, therefore (you conclude) they would multiply much,
if they had a toleration, in many, if not in most Townes and Parishes;
and you say it cannot be helped.

All this I grant may be; although they have not a Toleration,
I thinke they will increase; for the Taskemasters can lay
no heavier burthens upon them, then they have laid already:
but though they should increase, it will not be unprofitable,
for the increase of beleevers will be the strength and glory of
the Kingdome; for they will in all lawfull things, be subject to
the Kings Majestie their dread Soveraigne, and to all the
wholesome Lawes of his Land, and therefore it will be no danger
to have (as you say) swarmes of them.

Open note an34a-rota [Gap in transcription—1 numeralflawed-reproduction]g 29. In your 7th. Reason you affirme that it will be very prejudiciall dangerous
and insufferable to this Kingdome, for Saints two, or three, or
more, to gather, and combine themselves in Church Fellowship, having
onely power from Christ their immediate heade: without expecting warrant
from any Governors.

First, whereas you say it will be prejudiciall:

I answer, It can prejudice none in the Kingdome, except it be
the Priests, and it will be but of a little tithes, which they dare
not in conscience pay, because those Jewish Ceremonies are ceased, D3r 29
ceased, and if they have not Toleration, that will be all one (in
that respect,) for they will rather suffer, then doe any thing against
conscience.

Now whereas you say it will be dangerous, and insufferable to the
Kingdome, both these I deny; for if they were offensive people,
two or three or a few could doe but little hurt. But they have
beene proved to be a peaceable people, and the suffering of such
hath never beene dangerous to any Nation, but the not suffering
of such to live quietly in a Land, or to passe quietly thorow
a land, hath brought Judgements upon such Lands.

Now whereas you seeme to imply, that they should aske leave of the
Magistrate, to gather and combine themselves into visible Churches, &c.

I answer, I doe not reade that any ever asked leave of the
Magistrate for such a thing; nor to performe any of the parts of
Gods Worship or Discipline: and yet you confesse that these independant
men doe petition, to the Parliament for liberty.Open note an35-rota For this
see his Book
pag. 55.
Now I pray you Master Edwards, would you have Magistrates,
and Kings, and Princes to have more power over their subjects
then over their bodies, estates, and lives? would you have them
be Lords over their consciences? I pray you where must
Christ reigne then? Must he sit at the Magistrates footestoole?
and take what power the Magistrate will give him? (I meane
spirituall power of gathering and making Churches) and such
Lawes as the Magistrate will give him leave to have, to rule over
them by? Here you thrust Christ into a narrow corner;
for you would faine force him to give his glory to some other,
and his praise to some graven Image, of your owne devising,
which he hath said he will not doe.Open note an36-rota Esay 42. 8.

But methinkes it were fitter for men of your coate, to ground
the Government of Christs Church, upon the written Word of
God, and not upon Statute Lawes, nor Canon Lawes, which
you call Ecclesiasticall; for it will be no disparagement to the
Imperiall Crowne of this Realme, for Christs Church to be
governed by Christs owne Lawes.

The next thing is, you say, the Oath of Supremacie was appointed by
Law for Ecclesiasticall persons to take. Open note an37-rota Pag. 30. lin.
30. 31.

Methinkes that was a good consideration, for Ecclesiasticall
persons have beene in all ages ready to tyrannize, over Kings
and Emperours.

But now you aske the independant men (as you call them)
a question; but before you come to the question, you lay
downe an affirmation or a conclusion: (namely) That these,
independent men give power to the Churches.

D3 To D3v 30

To which I answer; If they should doe so, they were very
ignorant, and very presumptuous, for Christ hath given power
to the Churches, and all the Ministers that doe administer in
the Churches, must have the power by the Church.

But say you, they give that power to the Churches, which the Papists
give unto the Pope.

I answer, if they doe so they are blasphemers for the Papists
acknowledge the Pope to be the head of the Church: which
title all men ought to give onely unto Christ.

But now to your question; which is, whether they will take the Oath
of Supremacie, or doe acknowledge in their prayers, The King Defender
of the Faith? &c.

To which I answer, This Ooath you say, was ordained for
Ecclesiasticall persons, and I hope these Ecclesiasticall independant
men (if I may safely so call them) will ever, both acknowledge,
and maintaine, that the King is supreme over all the
Land, therefore over the Church of the Land, though it consist
of the Clergie, as it appeares by that Oath which you say was
appointed for the Clergie.

But whether they doe acknowledge the King, defender of the Faith,
&c. which is the later part of your Question?

To this I answer. It is out of all doubt, that these men doe desire
from their heart, (as well as all the Lords people) that the
King may defend the Faith of Christ Jesus, and dayly make
their prayers and supplications to God for him, and that in conscience
and obedience to God, being commanded in his Word
so to doe, for they know it is a duty laid upon them; for prayers
and supplications must be made for Kings, and all them that be
in authoritie;Open note an38-rota 1 Tim. 2.
1.2. but none can make axceptable prayers, but the
Saints, for the prayers of the wicked are abomination unto the LordOpen note an39-rota Pro. 15. 8. But
that all Kings have beene defenders of the Faith of Christ, I deny;
for there is but one Faith,Open note an40-rota Eph. 4. 5. and those that do maintaine that
true faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, lawfully have that title given
them; and none other may lawfully have it but they.

You will happily say, Queene Mary was not a Defender of
the Faith. But I say unto you, if the Crowne of England give
unto Kings and Queens that title; Queene Mary had as much
right to the title as Queene Elizabeth. &c.

Secondly, you say, they hold that the imposition of lawfull things, doth
make them unlawfull, (which you say is a strange paradoxe.)Open note an41-rota Pag. 31. lin.
36.

I answer, the imposition of lawfull things doe not make them
unlawfull, if he that imposeth them have authoritie so to doe:
as for example; the imposition of an Oath is very lawfull; but if D4r 31
if it be imposed by him that hath not authoritie, though it make
not the Oath unlawfull simply in it selfe, yet it makes the use of
it unlawfull, at that time, both to him and to me.

But as for formes of prayer: which (you say) they doe confesse to be
for order, and lawfull in themselves, yet unlawfull, being imposed.

I say, not as you say, they say, for I know no forme of prayer
lawfull in it selfe, for any of the Lords people to tie themselves
unto; nor that ever was imposed upon any by Christ, or his
Apostles; (We reade in 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2. that all manner of prayers
must be made unto God; and amongst other, supplications
must be made for Kings, but there was no forme of words given
by which wee must pray for any: and we are commanded to
pray with the Spirit, and to pray with understanding;) but we
are commanded to avoid an evill manner of praying; that we
should not be like the Hipocrites; which love to stand and pray
in the Synogogues,Open note an42-rota Matth. 6. 5 nor that we should make vaine repititions
as the Heathens, which thinke to be heard for their much babling:
Open note an43-rota Ver. 7.8. and as also we are forbidden an evill manner of praying;
so wee are commanded by God what manner to use, as it is
Open note an43a-rota Matth. 6.9. plaine in Matth. 6. 9.

The manner is that wee must in our prayers acknowledge
God to be our Father.

And secondly, That he is in heaven.

Thirdly, we must give glory to his Name..

Fourthly, we must pray for the coming of his Kingdome.

Fiftly, we must pray that the Lords Will may be done, both in
earth and in heaven.Open note an44-rota Ver. 10.

Sixthly, wee must pray for all things necessary for this life,
which is there set forth under the name of dayly bread.Open note an45-rota Ver. 11.

Seventhly, wee must pray for the forgivenesse of our owne
sinnes;Open note an46-rota Ver. 12. and we are also put in minde, that as wee would have
our owne sinnes forgiven, so we should forgive others; if they
acknowledge their offences, according to that in Luke 17. 4. “If thy
brother trespasse against thee seven times a day, and seven times a day, and seven times a day,
and say it repenteth him,” &c.

Eightly, we must pray against temptations to be delivered from
the evills thereof.Open note an47-rota Ver. 13.

And lastly, we must conclude with thankesgiving acknowledging
the Kingdome to be the Lords and all power, and glory to
be due unto him, not onely for that present time, but for ever.

Here you may see we are taught the manner how we ought to
pray, but we are tied to no forme of words, yet we are to beleeve
that this is a perfect Rule, and that we may sufficiently ground all the D4v 32
the petitions we neede to put up from this very rule.

As for Example,

As we desire to acknowledge God to be our Father, so wee
ought to desire, that others would doe the like.

And whereas we ought to pray for the Kingdome of God to
come, we are not to limit it to this, (that Christ may come to
rule in us onely) but that he may rule as a King in the heart of
all his chosen.

Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee
ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by
others also, and that they may grant the Kingdome, and power,
and glory to be his, not that he should be a King onely to rule in
the hearts of men, but also that he may rule and governe the
actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship: as we are
commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules, and the reason
is because they are his, 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now, if our bodies and
soules be Gods, then it must needs be granted, that it is in spiritual
worship: for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged
already, that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne
Lord the Kings; in whose Land we dwell.

Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind
themselves unto, it would have beene shewed, either in this
Scripture, or in some other; which thing you have not yet proved.

That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by
another Evangelist, which doth not use the same words, but
addeth some, and leaveth out other some; and also the whole
forme of thankesgiving, is left out by Luke, ( Luke 11. 2. 3.4.
Compared with Matth. 6. 9.) and to seeke the helpe of any booke
but the Bible to teach men to pray, is to disable God which hath
promised to give Beleevers his Spirit, whereby they shall cry
“Abba Father”,Open note an48-rota Rom. 8. 15 and that that Spirit “should leade them into all truth, and
bring all things to their remembrance”Open note an49-rota Jon. 14.
26. Therefore a forme of prayer
for men to tie themselves unto, cannot be sufficient and pleasing
to God though it were never imposed by any.

Thirdly, you lay another slander upon us, as though we should affirme,
that Christian Princes, and Magistrates, who are defenders of the Faith
have no more to doe in and about the Church, then Heathen Princes.

This is not true, for we know that Christian Princes, and
Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church; and so being,
they may be Officers in the Church; And if they be Defenders
of the Faith, they be such as defend the pure worship
of God, manifested in his Word, as also the true professors
thereof, and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt
to suppresse either it or them, as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did E1r 33
did, by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords
people.

But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the
Church of Christ before they know Christ, and then they become
Christian Kings. Therefore, to vent upon all occasions,
such principles as you see wee hold, and maintaine, is not (as
you say) dangerous and insufferable, neither are the people.

But you say further, that the people for a great part of them are heady
and refractory, and proud, and bitter, and scornfull, and dispisers of authoritie,
and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed, but
that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers, they have laboured
to hinder the use of them: And these people (I gather from your
owne words) are the professors in England, and especially in the city of
London; and it is very like to be so; because they were there
at the time of your service; (for neither the Separates nor
Semiseparates (as you call them) use to be there at the time of
your service (for ought I know:) and these Professors you have
also called Idle, & busibodies, tatlers also, as it is said, 1 Tim. 5. 13. very
wanton in their wits (say you) affecting novelties in Religion, and liking
of points that are not established nor commonly held, and these you say are
many of the professors.Open note an50-rota For this
see the third
part of his
Answer to
their second
Reason against
Toleration,
pag.
30. And in your second Reason against Toleration,
Pag.page 24. (you say) that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in
England, and especially in this citie, are upon all occasions very apt to fall
to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the
Church, &c. But I tel you, you ought not to blame any for withstanding
any thing in Gods worship, which is not grounded in his
Word: Neither (if the whole body of the worship there tendred
be the invention of man) ought any of them to be blamed for
opposing such a worship; because it is according to their Protestation.

Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly, as either by
casting up of hats, or threatning the Minister, or any the like unseemely
behaviour; for I judge it better for them to depart in
peace, if they have not faith in the action performed.

But methinkes (Mr. Edwards) you have foulely missed it, in
that you have vilified your brethren, to call them by the
names of those mockers which (Paul testified) should come in the last
time, that should be heady, and high minded, and proud boasters, and
despisers of authority; for such as these have not the power of godlinesse,
(and by this you make your Church a foule Church, and defile
shrewdly your owne nest, and make it appeare to all men that
you live in a Cage of uncleane birds) & therefore you are commanded
from such to turne aside;Open note an51-rota 2 Tim. 3.
5. if the feare of God be in your heart. E More- E1v 34
Moreover, You say, you feare they will not tolerate the Government
established by the Ecclesiasticall, and civill Lawes, and you would faine
father the cause of this your feare upon Separates, and Independancie,
whereas you cannot be so ignorant, but that you must
know, that the government established by Law may stand without
the leave of Separates, for they have neither power to give
toleration, nor to prohibit toleration, for, or against, any
thing.

But you say, you would rather pray against toleration, than prophesie
of the wofull effects of it.

I answer, if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable,
then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not
grounded upon Gods Word.

But of the wofullest effects of toleration, you have prophesied
already, in that you say, “they will withstand your Doctrine and your
dues, Open note an52-rota For this
see his fift
Reason against
toleration.

pag. 28. lin.
12, 13. and that will be a wofull effect indeede! when you shall be driven,
to cry out, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, for in one houre is so
great wealth come to desolation.”